Need a good table top scrolling CNC!

[RoboChair]

I believe you can get the Velox with a water cooled spindle, but it's way overkill. You would have to be running the machine like a production shop before it would be worth considering. Only thing it really makes easier is changing spindle speeds with the G-code and overrides from the Mach3 controller program.

[JohnFogarty]

Is this Velox router any good?

http://www.veloxcncrouters.com/#!36w/c1xeg

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty

Is this Velox router any good?

http://www.veloxcncrouters.com/#!36w/c1xeg

Yes, but I suggest upgrading from the router to a spindle so that you can adjust the speed of your cutting tool.

Also it depends on the table you mount (not place) it on, make or buy a real sturdy table and it will be fine.

We absolutely love our VR50X50 with the HSD 3 HP spindle.

[falconmaster]

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty

Is this Velox router any good?

http://www.veloxcncrouters.com/#!36w/c1xeg

We are evaluating that question right now. Its the repeat ability we are looking into between the two machines and the face that one weighs more and may be more rigid resulting in better accuracy.....

[techhelpbb]

Also ShopBot is good to consider.

[JohnFogarty]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

Also ShopBot is good to consider.

Which one, specifically?

[Mulcahy]

987 has used a shopbot bt-32 (the cheap one!) since 2013. Its great for fast prototypes in aluminum, MDF and plastic. As far as accuracy goes, it is not accurate enough to make transmissions and gearboxes, but can make anything that can take a tolerance of 0.010". A part that would take all day on a 3d printer, can be made in a few minutes on a shopbot and will be much stronger. Ours has a standard wood router spindle, which has been able to cut 1" aluminum, but I would recommend keeping it under 1/4" for most aluminum parts. We have had success with plastics and wood up to 3" thick.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty

Which one, specifically?

PRStandard with HSD spindle is around the sub-$15k range.

[Frank Neuperger]

I am helping Falcon robotics through the machine selection process.

Can the owners of both the velox and the Laguna, share with us the "typical" repeatability and accuracy that you have been able to get from your machines. i.e. have you put a dial indicator on the machine and tried to return to a point with each axis? How close can you get when you return?

Is anyone making aluminum transmission side plates with their CNC router. what kind of bearing hole diameter tolerance are you holding? How about center to center hole tolerances over say a 3" to 6" span.

What is the linear bearing rail diameter on both Laguna and velox on X and Y axis. This could help rationalize machine stiffness questions.

The 2 x 3 Laguna at 425 lbs with ball screws and water cooled spindle claims 0.002" repeatability.

The 4 x 4 Velox at 300 lbs with lead screws and router head claims 0.001" repeatability.

Would you not expect the repeatability to be better on the Laguna?

Velox will not share typical repeatability test results. I have not asked Laguna yet for repeatability data.

Also found out that Velox uses 2 NEMA 34 950 oz-in steppers for lower axis (Y) and single NEMA 34 on X axis. Velox uses 400 oz-in NEMA 23 on z axis.

Laguna uses single NEMA 23 on each of the 3 axis.

So Velox seems better on the motor torque and resultant effective stiffness in the drive train. Laguna has more mass and possibly structural stiffness. Why is the Velox repeatabilty claim twice as good.

Looking forward to data from anyone that has tested their machine.

[falconmaster]

Thanks Frank! Yes if anyone can answer Franks questions that would be great!

[RoboChair]

Originally Posted by Frank Neuperger

So Velox seems better on the motor torque and resultant effective stiffness in the drive train. Laguna has more mass and possibly structural stiffness. Why is the Velox repeatabilty claim twice as good.

Because the Velox machine is built with good materials and good design to make it very stiff. Weight does not always = rigidity. The router I have at work I can grab the gantry and get it to visibly oscillate, can't make the Velox budge.

While I do not currently have tests to detail for you I will say that greater than 75% or our robot this year was created on the Velox router. Every single custom gearbox was made with it, the holes are not 100% perfectly round but are unlikely to with any router so we post ream all the bearing holes. Over 20 gearbox plates easy. Any tolerance issues we have had with it have been almost always user error and not the machine. We also made chain sprockets that if they are even off by a thou are terrible at meshing, worked fine every time(something the Haas vertical mill I have at work hasn't lived up to even).

As a side note, while I was picking ours up at their shop they told me that some clients had even managed to pull off machining stainless steel. That is nuts that they managed to do that with any router.

[sanddrag]

If you can make sprockets on a router but not on a Haas, something is very wrong with your setup or process on the Haas. I highly doubt it's the machine.

[RoboChair]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

If you can make sprockets on a router but not on a Haas, something is very wrong with your setup or process on the Haas. I highly doubt it's the machine.

I meant to say that the Hass has not had a 100% success rate(works basically every time), not that it can't do it. Part of the issue there is to make a #25 chain sprocket you need to use a 1/8" endmill or smaller and the max spindle speed on the Hass is 7500 rpm when I should be running said endmill at 15000 rpm. So you have to turn the feed down. Also our 1/8" endmill is set in it's tool holder with just over 1" of stickout for clearance reasons with the parts we make and tool deflection doesn't help.

Enough of my rambling.

My point is your results with any machine are driven primarily by 2 factors. First is how well constructed you machine is. Second is how you use it. You can use a lesser machine to make the same part with comparable quality but it will take longer, more work, and have a higher chance of failure while doing so.

If I had to pick between a brand new VMC CNC with all the features and a VeloxCNC Router with all the options and both were free, I would pick the router every single time.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by RoboChair

I meant to say that the Hass has not had a 100% success rate(works basically every time), not that it can't do it. Part of the issue there is to make a #25 chain sprocket you need to use a 1/8" endmill or smaller and the max spindle speed on the Hass is 7500 rpm when I should be running said endmill at 15000 rpm. So you have to turn the feed down. Also our 1/8" endmill is set in it's tool holder with just over 1" of stickout for clearance reasons with the parts we make and tool deflection doesn't help.

I would suggest:

Get a split point drill smaller than 1/8" and peck drill around the perimeter leaving a margin smaller than 1/16" for the final break out. Drill straight down so deflection is less an issue. Then when you cut out you'll have less material to engage the end mill dragging it in different vectors as you cut the sprocket parallel to the machine deck.

This could be a little complicated to setup in CAM software. I would suggest doing the drill pass as one operation, then I assume your Haas has an ATC, change for the end mills and complete the cut out.

Also there are Haas spindles faster than 7,500RPM. The price you pay for ignoring the speeds and feeds is really the tool life and as the tool wears you pay for that in quality of cut. Disengaging the some of the cutter would likely increase the tool life at a less than perfect feed and speed.

Best of luck with it - I am sure this operation is within the capability of whatever Haas you have I've done it before.

[Aboudy Dairi]

Originally Posted by RoboChair

Because the Velox machine is built with good materials and good design to make it very stiff. Weight does not always = rigidity. The router I have at work I can grab the gantry and get it to visibly oscillate, can't make the Velox budge.

While I do not currently have tests to detail for you I will say that greater than 75% or our robot this year was created on the Velox router. Every single custom gearbox was made with it, the holes are not 100% perfectly round but are unlikely to with any router so we post ream all the bearing holes. Over 20 gearbox plates easy. Any tolerance issues we have had with it have been almost always user error and not the machine. We also made chain sprockets that if they are even off by a thou are terrible at meshing, worked fine every time(something the Haas vertical mill I have at work hasn't lived up to even).

As a side note, while I was picking ours up at their shop they told me that some clients had even managed to pull off machining stainless steel. That is nuts that they managed to do that with any router.

What are your typical cut parameters in aluminum? What size tool, speeds and feeds, width, depth? Im very curious now.