One or Two Drivers??

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by messer5740

So how would you code multiple drivers for one robot??? We used one driver this year but we only had three buttons that were used.

If you only use three buttons, one driver is usually best. If your robot has multiple continuous manipulators and little automation, you may want to add a second driver (or gunner). In this case, the drive controls will be on one joystick/controller and the manipulators on another.

[dirtbikerxz]

If anyone wants to know. I attached a image file of our controls this year. While it seems like a lot, I had no problem keeping up. But then again (no offense intended to anyone at all) not every person is capable of multitasking etc.... I simply just find it a lost easier to have only one driver. Because I do a lot of stuff "on the spot" and it would be impossible trying to explain to another person (like a shooter) what I'm about to do...

[jijiglobe]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

I simply just find it a lost easier to have only one driver. Because I do a lot of stuff "on the spot" and it would be impossible trying to explain to another person (like a shooter) what I'm about to do...

I've found in my experience that a little faith in your drive team partner can go a long way. Our team uses a few keywords to communicate. "Acquire" means we're going to go intake that ball. "Raise" means raise the arm. "Fire" means... fire.

I've found that most of the time I can just rely on my partner to do the right thing "on the spot" so long as we communicate about what our goals are. If we're stuck on the moat, for instance, and I we need to swing our arm in such a way that it shifts our CoG forward, a simple "we're stuck" will suffice, though usually I don't have to say anything in the first place.

The notion that making snap judgments on the spot is impossible with two drivers is a fallacy. (See 330 righting themselves on Einstein if you don't believe me)

[TheFox2996]

If you are looking at switching to two drivers, you have to know that they can communicate. We used two drivers this year and had some matches where my manipulator knew exactly when I would be lined up to shoot without me even telling him to shoot. That in sync behavior is what you need, very similar to sports. However during some matches we would shoot before we lined up due to bad communication. Another huge point for two drivers is that if something went wrong, our manipulator would have overrides to the limit switches and things like that. As a driver, it would be a nightmare to try and switch to override and manually control the device being used. Also just the amount of buttons was getting ridiculous for us and they would not all fit on the driver controller.

[Ryan_Todd]

To the best of my knowledge, Lightning Robotics has never fielded a single-driver robot in our 15 years of existence:

FIRST is about the Inspiration, after all, and limiting the drive team to a single student-- especially if your reason is to avoid the valuable learning experience of working closely with your peers in a high-pressure environment-- strikes me as a rather uninspiring policy to have.

...With that said, we usually divide the labor as follows:

"Driver"

• All drivetrain, all day!
• Closely related subsystems (like ramps/wedges, whose entire purpose is to help the robot to navigate the field obstacles) are sometimes bundled in as well.
• Interface is always composed of full-sized joysticks (one or two, depending on the style of drivetrain).
  • I don't care how much of a hardcore gamer you may be; a thumb stick on a hand-held game pad will never offer the kind of fine-grained control that you want for an FRC drivetrain, period.
    • [EDIT] lol, I knew that I'd get splashback for this assertion!
    • I acknowledge that many students, having grown up with access to game consoles for their entire lives, can indeed reach great heights in terms of skill with a gamepad. With practice, a good driver can learn to compensate for the robot's inertia, resulting in a very competitive performance.
    • Regardless, I stand behind my original statement. The difference in scale between a robot and a joystick is significant enough as-is, but at least a joystick still gives you some sense of the robot's inertia. There's a good reason why gamepad thumbstick extenders are a thing: range of movement is kind of a big deal, and thumbsticks have very little of that. [/EDIT]
• Above all else, we depend on the driver for consistency; on top of the usual selection requirements of driving skill and cooperative attitude, the ideal driver is completely impervious to pressure and distraction when they are "in the zone" during a competition match.

"Co-pilot"

• Controls everything else: arm, intake, shooter, what-have-you.
• Back in the days of serial ports, the co-pilot's interface usedto be custom-made: an array of knobs and buttons chosen specifically for that year's subsystems.
  • These days, we usually just give the co-pilot a handheld game pad and a printout of the button mappings.
• The co-pilot is expected to multi-task like a champion, managing several subsystems simultaneously; they must also exhibit exceptional adaptability, in order to cope with mechanism failures and [s]improvements[/s] changes made by the programming team in between matches.

"Drive Coach"

• Pretty much self-explanatory...
• Studies the large-scale goings-on around the field, coordinates with alliance partners, and issues high-level commands to the drive team. Examples...
  • If the clock is running out: "One more shot, make it count!"
  • If we're defending against a powerhouse, and a ref starts counting down for a pin: "Countdown: 3... 2... 1... back!"
  • If we're crossing a defense, boulder in tow: "Batter shot, left side!"
  • If an ally gets stuck on a boulder: "Hey [####]! You need help?"
    (And if the answer is yes) "Ok! After this shot, we go help [####]."
• Selection criteria: preferably an alumnus with competition driving experience. Alternatively, someone with experience coaching or refereeing any sport will also do nicely.

[Amit3339]

Originally Posted by Ryan_Todd

To the best of my knowledge, Lightning Robotics has never fielded a single-driver robot in our 15 years of existence:

FIRST is about the Inspiration, after all, and limiting the drive team to a single student-- especially if your reason is to avoid the valuable learning experience of working closely with your peers in a high-pressure environment-- strikes me as a rather uninspiring policy to have.

...With that said, we usually divide the labor as follows:

"Driver"

• All drivetrain, all day!
• Closely related subsystems (like ramps/wedges, whose entire purpose is to help the robot to navigate the field obstacles) are sometimes bundled in as well.
• Interface is always composed of full-sized joysticks (one or two, depending on the style of drivetrain).
  • I don't care how much of a hardcore gamer you may be; a thumb stick on a hand-held game pad will never offer the kind of fine-grained control that you want for an FRC drivetrain, period.
• Above all else, we depend on the driver for consistency; on top of the usual selection requirements of driving skill and cooperative attitude, the ideal driver is completely impervious to pressure and distraction when they are "in the zone" during a competition match.

"Co-pilot"

• Controls everything else: arm, intake, shooter, what-have-you.
• Back in the days of serial ports, the co-pilot's interface usedto be custom-made: an array of knobs and buttons chosen specifically for that year's subsystems.
  • These days, we usually just give the co-pilot a handheld game pad and a printout of the button mappings.
• The co-pilot is expected to multi-task like a champion, managing several subsystems simultaneously; they must also exhibit exceptional adaptability, in order to cope with mechanism failures and [s]improvements[/s] changes made by the programming team in between matches.

"Drive Coach"

• Pretty much self-explanatory...
• Studies the large-scale goings-on around the field, and issues high-level commands to the drive team. Examples...
  • If the clock is running out: "One more shot, make it count!"
  • If we're defending against a powerhouse: "Hold 'em for 3... 2... 1... back!"
  • If we're crossing a defense, boulder in tow: "Batter shot, left side!"
  • If an ally gets stuck on a boulder: "Hey ####! You need help?"
    (And if the answer is yes) "Ok! After this shot, we go help ####."
• Selection criteria: preferably an alumnus with competition driving experience. Alternatively, someone with experience coaching or refereeing any sport will also do nicely.

Good explanation to how the roles are divided(usually). I have noticed that many teams don't use the drive coach as you mentioned, they let the drivers be "free" with their action and are gettin involved only when there is a certain unwanted situation. But again... every team have different methods. It's also depends on what drivers do you have? Do they like to be told what to do step by step and so on

[jijiglobe]

Originally Posted by Ryan_Todd

[*]I don't care how much of a hardcore gamer you may be; a thumb stick on a hand-held game pad will never offer the kind of fine-grained control that you want for an FRC drivetrain, period.

When you say it like that, I almost feel like I have no choice but to argue the contrary, and I will. I have found that with a little bit of practice on fine control (literally just holding a controller and practicing tiny movements) I have been able to achieve a high level of control ability with gamepad thumbsticks.

I have almost never used full-size control sticks to drive, but I will say what I think the pros of gamepads are (for driver):

1) Their intuitive. The gaming industry has invested a ridiculous amount of money into making controllers that are ergonomic and intuitive to use. Students that are used to gamepads will be able to reach a high level of proficiency fairly quickly (though, I admit, this is significantly mitigated by the fact that fine-grained control practice may be necessary). I think it's similar to how many teams opt to use a steering wheel to drive their robot. Students in areas where driving is a necessity may be very accustomed to this type of controller. Here in New York City, the driving age is 18 so that kind of controller is out of the question.

2) This one might seem a little crazy but does anyone else here get jittery on the field before a big match? Can't testify that this isn't just me but when I'm feeling jittery my arms and legs might shake, but my thumbs don't.

3) You can get gamepads that rumble... Could be useful for conveying sensor data... Just an idea we've been toying around with on 694...

4) Gamepads are convenient. Our entire driver station fits inside a small Pelican case (which I take great joy in kicking, throwing, and otherwise manhandling). Obviously not a huge issue, but still, I like convenience

I'm not saying that full-sized joysticks aren't viable (because they are) but I'm also definitely willing to argue that gamepads are just as viable.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by jijiglobe

When you say it like that, I almost feel like I have no choice but to argue the contrary, and I will. I have found that with a little bit of practice on fine control (literally just holding a controller and practicing tiny movements) I have been able to achieve a high level of control ability with gamepad thumbsticks.

I have almost never used full-size control sticks to drive, but I will say what I think the pros of gamepads are (for driver):

1) Their intuitive. The gaming industry has invested a ridiculous amount of money into making controllers that are ergonomic and intuitive to use. Students that are used to gamepads will be able to reach a high level of proficiency fairly quickly (though, I admit, this is significantly mitigated by the fact that fine-grained control practice may be necessary). I think it's similar to how many teams opt to use a steering wheel to drive their robot. Students in areas where driving is a necessity may be very accustomed to this type of controller. Here in New York City, the driving age is 18 so that kind of controller is out of the question.

2) This one might seem a little crazy but does anyone else here get jittery on the field before a big match? Can't testify that this isn't just me but when I'm feeling jittery my arms and legs might shake, but my thumbs don't.

3) You can get gamepads that rumble... Could be useful for conveying sensor data... Just an idea we've been toying around with on 694...

4) Gamepads are convenient. Our entire driver station fits inside a small Pelican case (which I take great joy in kicking, throwing, and otherwise manhandling). Obviously not a huge issue, but still, I like convenience

I'm not saying that full-sized joysticks aren't viable (because they are) but I'm also definitely willing to argue that gamepads are just as viable.

Agreed. We used a single controller this year for our entire bot.

We did actually use the rumble capability. Essentially when our shooter motors were moving fast enough to shoot it would rumble. The controller also did pulsating rumbles in the last 25 seconds of the Match to remind me to park on the batter. It was pretty useful.

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Agreed. We used a single controller this year for our entire bot.

We did actually use the rumble capability. Essentially when our shooter motors were moving fast enough to shoot it would rumble. The controller also did pulsating rumbles in the last 25 seconds of the Match to remind me to park on the batter. It was pretty useful.

The rumble usage is really clever. I'll be pushing for 229 to use it in the future.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell

The rumble usage is really clever. I'll be pushing for 229 to use it in the future.

Just letting you know, in case you get some ideas, we used rumble for:

• buzz once alerting me if a boulder was successfully picked up
• buzz twice alerting me when a boulder was shot out
• 4 second buzz last 30 seconds to let me know to get my final shots in
• buzz the remaining last 15 seconds to let me know to climb

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by jijiglobe

2) This one might seem a little crazy but does anyone else here get jittery on the field before a big match? Can't testify that this isn't just me but when I'm feeling jittery my arms and legs might shake, but my thumbs don't.

Its not crazy at all. When we get to a regional, the first match, and maybe the second, (and also any key elimination match) my entire body will be shaking, but my hands are always steady.

[Pauline Tasci]

hey there!
3476 uses 2 drivers every year.
One operator in charge of the mechanism
one driver in charge of driving the robot on the field.

We find this best since all the pressure to perform is not on one person and we tend to use a lot of buttons for our extensive design features.

Personally when I was a student I was a driver and found relief in the fact that I just had to get the robot over there and someone else was there to pick up some weight.

[thatnameistaken]

As someone who's worked with 3 different operators as well as flown solo over my 4 years, I think I can provide some unique insight here.

First of all, I feel that 2 drivers, if done right, is superior. I find that the less mechanisms I have to worry about controlling, the easier it is to avoid and outmaneuver opposing defense bots. This is because operating said mechanisms usually requires a close eye on our robot, which frequently leads to tunnel vision. I experienced this first hand in 2014, where I had control of loading our ball into our catapult after it was inside our robot. Many times after the ball was securely in place, I would look up from our robot and be surprised to see defense right in front of us. Conversely, in 2013, my freshman year, I had NO mechanism control; and even though I was less experienced, I generally knew where each robot on the field was and where they were going at all times, because I was able to dart my eyes around the field while keeping track of our robot in my peripheral vision. I was able to outmaneuver many defensive bots as a result.

There are exceptions, though. In 2015, there was no defense to worry about; additionally, our robot was a simple forklift with just 2 functions. So, that year I controlled everything myself, and it really wasn't an issue. Additionally, this year, we found ourselves with extremely low practice time (read: none at all). I was more confident that I could learn to control everything faster than 2 of us could learn to coordinate (our previous operator had graduated as well). I went ahead and flew solo at our first competition, and minus mechanical issues with our bot itself, we did alright. For our second competition, we used our unbag time to train up another operator, and I can say that I felt more comfortable not having to worry about controlling every little aspect on our robot.

As for doing unpracticed stuff on the fly -- from my own experience, if your 2 drivers are compatible enough, this is just as easy (sometimes easier, even) with 2 as it is with 1.

[hutchMN]

2502 used one driver in 2015, but it was with a driver that had three years of experience. The robot was difficult to drive, but he was able to handle it so we used the extra driver as an extra human player to pass totes. Most years we have used two drivers including this year.

[messer5740]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

Its not crazy at all. When we get to a regional, the first match, and maybe the second, (and also any key elimination match) my entire body will be shaking, but my hands are always steady.

Adrenaline rush! Love it- makes me perform better.