FRC rules around seating need to change.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

So yes, I would say we "reserve seats," but it's really so that we can sit together during our matches.

In any venue that isn't overcrowded, my experience has been that it's easy to sit together without any saving of seats.

When you save seats you push other people into seats you have decided are less desirable. You have told them that they don't deserve the seats you are saving, even though they have followed the rules, and even though your team isn't special in any way.

If, instead, your group simply sits in the seats you want to push other people into, instead of telling those other people that they have to sit in them (in order for you to keep a seat open for someone who hasn't arrived or who is mostly elsewhere), then life is good for all.

You will have graciously not prioritized your own interests above someone else's, and you will have followed the rule.

Blake

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

This is ironically where I see a problem and where I think there needs to be a culture change.

You can not ALLOW someone to sit with you. You can invite people to sit with you during those times but if they want to stay they can stay and you can not tell them to leave.

Sorry, bad wording. The thing is, people don't usually stay very long, because 99% of the time, someone needs to sit there for just a match or two, and then they leave. We never ever tell someone to leave, and in fact, we really like interacting with other teams. The point of this, though, is to say that we also like to sit as a team when we are on the field, so we generally spread out somewhat when everyone is out fixing robots. And during that time, people generally sit with us, and we certainly welcome them and in fact invite them to sit as long as they would like.

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by gblake

In any venue that isn't overcrowded, my experience has been that it's easy to sit together without any saving of seats.

When you save seats you push other people into seats you have decided are less desirable. You have told them that they don't deserve the seats you are saving, even though they have followed the rules, and even though your team isn't special in any way.

If, instead, your group simply sits in the seats you want to push other people into, instead of telling those other people that they have to sit in them (in order for you to keep a seat open for someone who hasn't arrived or who is mostly elsewhere), then life is good for all.

You will have graciously not prioritized your own interests above someone else's, and you will have followed the rule.

Blake

You missed the point of what I was saying, though. If you had read what I wrote, I said that people from other teams usually come and go in the section in which we are sitting, because they also just want to stay for a match or two, and we have open seats. So we "reserve" a section in one sense of the word, but we often invite others to sit with us if they need a place to sit. In my mind, that is being quite courteous, as we are not pushing anyone else away from those seats. And when we are on the field, or when finals start, people are usually very courteous and volunteer their spots so that our team can sit together. We have often been the team that sits in those undesirable seats. It depends on the day and the venue. We are, in fact, often on the corners of the stands or in the upper sections or off to the side, for this very reason. We sit wherever is open when we arrive, watch opening ceremonies, and half of the team disperses around the venue, leaving half of the seats which were previously occupied, open for other people to sit.

But when we are on the field or during the awards ceremony, we would like to sit as a team, and we pack in as tightly as we can so there is room for others.

At championships, the only time we ever sat as a team was on Saturday, because everyone was always coming and going.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

You missed the point of what I was saying, though. If you had read what I wrote, I said that people from other teams usually come and go in the section in which we are sitting, because they also just want to stay for a match or two, and we have open seats. So we "reserve" a section in one sense of the word, but we often invite others to sit with us if they need a place to sit. In my mind, that is being quite courteous, as we are not pushing anyone else away from those seats. And when we are on the field, or when finals start, people are usually very courteous and volunteer their spots so that our team can sit together. We have often been the team that sits in those undesirable seats. It depends on the day and the venue. We are, in fact, often on the corners of the stands or in the upper sections or off to the side, for this very reason. We sit wherever is open when we arrive, watch opening ceremonies, and half of the team disperses around the venue, leaving half of the seats which were previously occupied, open for other people to sit.

But when we are on the field or during the awards ceremony, we would like to sit as a team, and we pack in as tightly as we can so there is room for others.

At championships, the only time we ever sat as a team was on Saturday, because everyone was always coming and going.

I don't think I failed to read what you wrote in the earlier post. But FWIW, I personally like what you wrote in the post I just quoted.

You didn't write this originally, "We sit wherever is open when we arrive, watch opening ceremonies, and half of the team disperses around the venue, leaving half of the seats which were previously occupied, open for other people to sit."

I applaud that. I think that is exactly how the don't save seats rule is intended to work.

As far as I can tell you guys are doing the opposite of saving seats, and are setting a good example.

Thumbs up! and +1

Sorry for my side of the miscommunication,
Blake

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by gblake

I don't think I failed to read what you wrote in the earlier post. But FWIW, I personally like what you wrote in the post I just quoted.

You didn't write this originally, "We sit wherever is open when we arrive, watch opening ceremonies, and half of the team disperses around the venue, leaving half of the seats which were previously occupied, open for other people to sit."

I applaud that. I think that is exactly how the don't save seats rule is intended to work.

As far as I can tell you guys are doing the opposite of saving seats.

Thumbs up! and +1

Sorry for my side of the miscommunication,
Blake

No biggie! I only say we "save seats," because we tend to spread out more when we don't have as many people in the stands, but it's mostly so that when it's time for our matches or ceremonies, our members have a place to come and sit. And the people sitting in "our section" (for lack of a better term, I know it's not ours per se) are generally gracious enough to volunteer their seats back to let our members sit with their teammates if needed. But again, we only spread out because if we don't, our students and mentors won't be able to sit with their teammates, because another team is going to try to "reserve" the spot in the traditional sense of the word (i.e. telling people they can't sit there). So I would say that we do reserve seats, but we aren't as strict about it as some teams. We don't have caution tape spread around a section

Sorry for the miscommunication.

[D_Price]

From my experience, Our team has never had a problem with seating nor do we save seats. Once our whole team is there, they go up and grab seats for everyone on the team WHO IS THERE. If they are down in the pits, the students will drape a coat or sweater over the seat that is needed. Never have I ever seen someone not allowed to sit in a section. I understand this is a main issue at alot of the larger venues and at Worlds.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by D_Price

From my experience, Our team has never had a problem with seating nor do we save seats. Once our whole team is there, they go up and grab seats for everyone on the team WHO IS THERE. If they are down in the pits, the students will drape a coat or sweater over the seat that is needed. Never have I ever seen someone not allowed to sit in a section. I understand this is a main issue at alot of the larger venues and at Worlds.

By dropping the coat on the chair you are saving seats.

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

By dropping the coat on the chair you are saving seats.

So then where exactly are those people supposed to sit? Are they supposed to not be able to sit with their team because they've been in the pit all day long? Are they supposed to sit on the other side of the venue by themselves, away from their teammates because their team wasn't allowed to save them a seat?

Just wondering what your team does when you have people out in the pits or on the field all day long, and all they want to do is sit with their teammates for a while.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

So then where exactly are those people supposed to sit? Are they supposed to not be able to sit with their team because they've been in the pit all day long? Are they supposed to sit on the other side of the venue by themselves, away from their teammates because their team wasn't allowed to save them a seat?

Just wondering what your team does when you have people out in the pits or on the field all day long, and all they want to do is sit with their teammates for a while.

If there are no seats left in our area we will move the entire team to an open area. If there are no open areas we don't sit together.

[jvriezen]

A large part of the confusion in this thread is regarding the definition of 'saving seats' It means different things to different people.

Here is I think the most strict and draconian definition of not saving seats-- i.e. if you aren't doing the following you are breaking FIRST's rule:

All CURRENTLY PRESENT members of your party/team are sitting in adjacent seats with no intervening 'empty' seats (by empty I mean no BODY in the seat, coats are irrelevent) and no one is straddling more than one seat, and you make no verbal, non-verbal or other attempt to prevent anyone else from sitting in seats adjacent to your party/team.

The above asserts that leaving empty seats between members of your party (with or without coats) sends a non-verbal message to others (particularly those that are unaware of the no-seat saving rule) that those seats are 'saved' or 'taken'. The non-verbal is particularly strong if all the occupants that are present are wearing the same t-shirt. It says to any visitor "it looks like I don't fit in here"

At the other extreme:

The only way you can actually be accused of 'saving seats' is if you verbally or physically indicate to others that they may not sit in a seat that has no BODY in it. E.g. asking/urging someone to find another seat but allowing them to take a seat if they insist is technically not 'saving' under this definition.

In between there is all manner of using coats, leaving small gaps of empty seats, asking, pleading with others to look elsewhere, etc.

Consider the following scenario:

Two large teams have team sized 'reserved' adjacent sections which are only 50% filled with bodies (maybe less) scattered among the sections.

A large group of people arrive (team, fan bus crowd, general public group, maybe a group of younger kids on a field trip) and they see this and ask the existing team members to compact and sit together so that their group can also sit together. Would you move for them? If not, you can defend that, because you can reasonably expect to stay in the seat you have.

What if the large group decides that taking the empty seats among your teams' seats will get them 'close enough' together-- just like taking a bunch of smaller tables in a restaurant rather than waiting for one big table-- just like the team members you have present are 'close enough'. Will you let these new people sit here, taking most/all of your 'reserved' seats? If the answer is no, I'd claim you are saving seats even if you are willing to let a handful of temporary sitters take some seats. If you are unwilling to give up all your 'reserved' seats to all comers at any time, you are saving seats. Some might argue that if you are sending the message that you are unwilling to give up the seats via coats, spreading yourselves thinly, etc. you are also saving seats, but that is much more arguable either way.

Alas, there are no cut and dried rules that will make everyone happy, due to the special cases of bathroom breaks and drive/pit team seat reservations during playoffs.

Personally, I would advocate that *only* bathroom breaks or concession breaks (of reasonable length) and drive/pit team reservations during playoffs are justifiable scenarios for saving seats.

But the current rules do not allow that.

[nrgy_blast]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

So then where exactly are those people supposed to sit? Are they supposed to not be able to sit with their team because they've been in the pit all day long? Are they supposed to sit on the other side of the venue by themselves, away from their teammates because their team wasn't allowed to save them a seat?

Just wondering what your team does when you have people out in the pits or on the field all day long, and all they want to do is sit with their teammates for a while.

They're supposed to sit wherever there is an open seat. If the venue is packed, it is likely that there may not be enough seats with the bulk of the team to accommodate the entire pit crew or late-rising parents, etc. This is how it works - by definition.

The worst part of this is it isn't usually other teams that you put off by saving seats - it's curious members of the general public. If someone isn't going to be around for an extended time period, let someone else sit there!

[Whatever]

Originally Posted by jvriezen

Personally, I would advocate that *only* bathroom breaks or concession breaks (of reasonable length) and drive/pit team reservations during playoffs are justifiable scenarios for saving seats.

But the current rules do not allow that.

We had members of our scout team lose their seats while they were volunteering to sing the national anthem this year.

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by Whatever

We had members of our scout team lose their seats while they were volunteering to sing the national anthem this year.

No, they didn't lose their seats, once they left to go sing, they no longer had seats. Volunteering is a choice and with it comes sacrifices. I've rarely sat with my team during opening ceremonies because I'm volunteering as well.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by jvriezen

No, they didn't lose their seats, once they left to go sing, they no longer had seats. Volunteering is a choice and with it comes sacrifices. I've rarely sat with my team during opening ceremonies because I'm volunteering as well.

Well that should really go a long way toward encouraging teams to send out volunteers for supporting an event--you're rewarded by losing your place to sit.

Sorry, I've really stayed away from this, but when someone makes a statement without thinking through the consequences of what they're saying, it raises a red flag.

[tcjinaz]

Thought I would chime in without quoting anyone in particular with something I experienced on Tesla this year.

This was out first trip to Champs this year, and I was quite fearful of the seat wars. I tried to keep our team civil and accommodating, and succeeded, except for when I almost lost it with the supporters of a team who did not have a clue about what the rules were, nor apparently had ever heard the term Gracious Professionalism. I got over it. The kids, parents & mentors settled into a pattern where we really only reserved 4 or five seats (out of about thirty), and had no problem sharing.

Now for the good part. On Tesla, the volunteer managing the crowd had four rows closest to the field reserved for supporters of teams on the field. I have no idea if this was normal on the other 87.5% of the stadium, but it worked for us quite nicely. Most of the time, we "parked' in a section off between Tesla and whatever field was to our left (I wasn't paying a lot of attention). When our matches came up, we wandered over to the "great" seats and cheered for our team. Then moved on after the match. Two weeks later, I saw our driver on video talking about what it meant to him to be able to see and hear us cheer for them. That plan worked. Was that going on elsewhere?

Tim