FRC rules around seating need to change.

[jvriezen]

A large part of the confusion in this thread is regarding the definition of 'saving seats' It means different things to different people.

Here is I think the most strict and draconian definition of not saving seats-- i.e. if you aren't doing the following you are breaking FIRST's rule:

All CURRENTLY PRESENT members of your party/team are sitting in adjacent seats with no intervening 'empty' seats (by empty I mean no BODY in the seat, coats are irrelevent) and no one is straddling more than one seat, and you make no verbal, non-verbal or other attempt to prevent anyone else from sitting in seats adjacent to your party/team.

The above asserts that leaving empty seats between members of your party (with or without coats) sends a non-verbal message to others (particularly those that are unaware of the no-seat saving rule) that those seats are 'saved' or 'taken'. The non-verbal is particularly strong if all the occupants that are present are wearing the same t-shirt. It says to any visitor "it looks like I don't fit in here"

At the other extreme:

The only way you can actually be accused of 'saving seats' is if you verbally or physically indicate to others that they may not sit in a seat that has no BODY in it. E.g. asking/urging someone to find another seat but allowing them to take a seat if they insist is technically not 'saving' under this definition.

In between there is all manner of using coats, leaving small gaps of empty seats, asking, pleading with others to look elsewhere, etc.

Consider the following scenario:

Two large teams have team sized 'reserved' adjacent sections which are only 50% filled with bodies (maybe less) scattered among the sections.

A large group of people arrive (team, fan bus crowd, general public group, maybe a group of younger kids on a field trip) and they see this and ask the existing team members to compact and sit together so that their group can also sit together. Would you move for them? If not, you can defend that, because you can reasonably expect to stay in the seat you have.

What if the large group decides that taking the empty seats among your teams' seats will get them 'close enough' together-- just like taking a bunch of smaller tables in a restaurant rather than waiting for one big table-- just like the team members you have present are 'close enough'. Will you let these new people sit here, taking most/all of your 'reserved' seats? If the answer is no, I'd claim you are saving seats even if you are willing to let a handful of temporary sitters take some seats. If you are unwilling to give up all your 'reserved' seats to all comers at any time, you are saving seats. Some might argue that if you are sending the message that you are unwilling to give up the seats via coats, spreading yourselves thinly, etc. you are also saving seats, but that is much more arguable either way.

Alas, there are no cut and dried rules that will make everyone happy, due to the special cases of bathroom breaks and drive/pit team seat reservations during playoffs.

Personally, I would advocate that *only* bathroom breaks or concession breaks (of reasonable length) and drive/pit team reservations during playoffs are justifiable scenarios for saving seats.

But the current rules do not allow that.

[Whatever]

Originally Posted by jvriezen

Personally, I would advocate that *only* bathroom breaks or concession breaks (of reasonable length) and drive/pit team reservations during playoffs are justifiable scenarios for saving seats.

But the current rules do not allow that.

We had members of our scout team lose their seats while they were volunteering to sing the national anthem this year.

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by Whatever

We had members of our scout team lose their seats while they were volunteering to sing the national anthem this year.

No, they didn't lose their seats, once they left to go sing, they no longer had seats. Volunteering is a choice and with it comes sacrifices. I've rarely sat with my team during opening ceremonies because I'm volunteering as well.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by jvriezen

No, they didn't lose their seats, once they left to go sing, they no longer had seats. Volunteering is a choice and with it comes sacrifices. I've rarely sat with my team during opening ceremonies because I'm volunteering as well.

Well that should really go a long way toward encouraging teams to send out volunteers for supporting an event--you're rewarded by losing your place to sit.

Sorry, I've really stayed away from this, but when someone makes a statement without thinking through the consequences of what they're saying, it raises a red flag.

[tcjinaz]

Thought I would chime in without quoting anyone in particular with something I experienced on Tesla this year.

This was out first trip to Champs this year, and I was quite fearful of the seat wars. I tried to keep our team civil and accommodating, and succeeded, except for when I almost lost it with the supporters of a team who did not have a clue about what the rules were, nor apparently had ever heard the term Gracious Professionalism. I got over it. The kids, parents & mentors settled into a pattern where we really only reserved 4 or five seats (out of about thirty), and had no problem sharing.

Now for the good part. On Tesla, the volunteer managing the crowd had four rows closest to the field reserved for supporters of teams on the field. I have no idea if this was normal on the other 87.5% of the stadium, but it worked for us quite nicely. Most of the time, we "parked' in a section off between Tesla and whatever field was to our left (I wasn't paying a lot of attention). When our matches came up, we wandered over to the "great" seats and cheered for our team. Then moved on after the match. Two weeks later, I saw our driver on video talking about what it meant to him to be able to see and hear us cheer for them. That plan worked. Was that going on elsewhere?

Tim

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by tcjinaz

Thought I would chime in without quoting anyone in particular with something I experienced on Tesla this year.

This was out first trip to Champs this year, and I was quite fearful of the seat wars. I tried to keep our team civil and accommodating, and succeeded, except for when I almost lost it with the supporters of a team who did not have a clue about what the rules were, nor apparently had ever heard the term Gracious Professionalism. I got over it. The kids, parents & mentors settled into a pattern where we really only reserved 4 or five seats (out of about thirty), and had no problem sharing.

Now for the good part. On Tesla, the volunteer managing the crowd had four rows closest to the field reserved for supporters of teams on the field. I have no idea if this was normal on the other 87.5% of the stadium, but it worked for us quite nicely. Most of the time, we "parked' in a section off between Tesla and whatever field was to our left (I wasn't paying a lot of attention). When our matches came up, we wandered over to the "great" seats and cheered for our team. Then moved on after the match. Two weeks later, I saw our driver on video talking about what it meant to him to be able to see and hear us cheer for them. That plan worked. Was that going on elsewhere?

Tim

I believe the reserved seating became universal policy at cmp in 2014.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

I believe the reserved seating became universal policy at cmp in 2014.

Had it on Galileo.

Though I did have to make a comment to one of those volunteers about the other practically screaming at people to move all the way down (to the exit) when there was nobody else coming in (and lots of empty seats), and the team's robot was playing on the left (entrance) side of those rows, practically defeating the purpose of those rows.