One or Two Drivers??

[messer5740]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

If anyone wants to know. I attached a image file of our controls this year. While it seems like a lot, I had no problem keeping up. But then again (no offense intended to anyone at all) not every person is capable of multitasking etc.... I simply just find it a lost easier to have only one driver. Because I do a lot of stuff "on the spot" and it would be impossible trying to explain to another person (like a shooter) what I'm about to do...

That doesnt look too too bad. Im the driver and I can most likely keep up with that. Using a joystick with that many buttons would be SUPER confusing.

[TheFox2996]

If you are looking at switching to two drivers, you have to know that they can communicate. We used two drivers this year and had some matches where my manipulator knew exactly when I would be lined up to shoot without me even telling him to shoot. That in sync behavior is what you need, very similar to sports. However during some matches we would shoot before we lined up due to bad communication. Another huge point for two drivers is that if something went wrong, our manipulator would have overrides to the limit switches and things like that. As a driver, it would be a nightmare to try and switch to override and manually control the device being used. Also just the amount of buttons was getting ridiculous for us and they would not all fit on the driver controller.

[Ryan_Todd]

To the best of my knowledge, Lightning Robotics has never fielded a single-driver robot in our 15 years of existence:

FIRST is about the Inspiration, after all, and limiting the drive team to a single student-- especially if your reason is to avoid the valuable learning experience of working closely with your peers in a high-pressure environment-- strikes me as a rather uninspiring policy to have.

...With that said, we usually divide the labor as follows:

"Driver"

• All drivetrain, all day!
• Closely related subsystems (like ramps/wedges, whose entire purpose is to help the robot to navigate the field obstacles) are sometimes bundled in as well.
• Interface is always composed of full-sized joysticks (one or two, depending on the style of drivetrain).
  • I don't care how much of a hardcore gamer you may be; a thumb stick on a hand-held game pad will never offer the kind of fine-grained control that you want for an FRC drivetrain, period.
    • [EDIT] lol, I knew that I'd get splashback for this assertion!
    • I acknowledge that many students, having grown up with access to game consoles for their entire lives, can indeed reach great heights in terms of skill with a gamepad. With practice, a good driver can learn to compensate for the robot's inertia, resulting in a very competitive performance.
    • Regardless, I stand behind my original statement. The difference in scale between a robot and a joystick is significant enough as-is, but at least a joystick still gives you some sense of the robot's inertia. There's a good reason why gamepad thumbstick extenders are a thing: range of movement is kind of a big deal, and thumbsticks have very little of that. [/EDIT]
• Above all else, we depend on the driver for consistency; on top of the usual selection requirements of driving skill and cooperative attitude, the ideal driver is completely impervious to pressure and distraction when they are "in the zone" during a competition match.

"Co-pilot"

• Controls everything else: arm, intake, shooter, what-have-you.
• Back in the days of serial ports, the co-pilot's interface usedto be custom-made: an array of knobs and buttons chosen specifically for that year's subsystems.
  • These days, we usually just give the co-pilot a handheld game pad and a printout of the button mappings.
• The co-pilot is expected to multi-task like a champion, managing several subsystems simultaneously; they must also exhibit exceptional adaptability, in order to cope with mechanism failures and [s]improvements[/s] changes made by the programming team in between matches.

"Drive Coach"

• Pretty much self-explanatory...
• Studies the large-scale goings-on around the field, coordinates with alliance partners, and issues high-level commands to the drive team. Examples...
  • If the clock is running out: "One more shot, make it count!"
  • If we're defending against a powerhouse, and a ref starts counting down for a pin: "Countdown: 3... 2... 1... back!"
  • If we're crossing a defense, boulder in tow: "Batter shot, left side!"
  • If an ally gets stuck on a boulder: "Hey [####]! You need help?"
    (And if the answer is yes) "Ok! After this shot, we go help [####]."
• Selection criteria: preferably an alumnus with competition driving experience. Alternatively, someone with experience coaching or refereeing any sport will also do nicely.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by jijiglobe

I've found in my experience that a little faith in your drive team partner can go a long way. Our team uses a few keywords to communicate. "Acquire" means we're going to go intake that ball. "Raise" means raise the arm. "Fire" means... fire.

I've found that most of the time I can just rely on my partner to do the right thing "on the spot" so long as we communicate about what our goals are. If we're stuck on the moat, for instance, and I we need to swing our arm in such a way that it shifts our CoG forward, a simple "we're stuck" will suffice, though usually I don't have to say anything in the first place.

The notion that making snap judgments on the spot is impossible with two drivers is a fallacy. (See 330 righting themselves on Einstein if you don't believe me)

Let me give some context for our situation. SO we are a small team. 13 students, but only 3-4 that show up on a constant basis. Every build season we barely finish the bot in time for bag day (in the case of last year, not even finish, and have to finish the thursday of our first regional. We don't have time to actually practice on the bot before our first regional, and definetly don't have a practice bot. That in addition to the fact that I'm the only person on the team (not bragging here, just facts) that has the required skills to be a driver, makes it simply not possible to have a 2 drivers that communicate flawlessly. Don't get me wrong. I love my team members, and we know exactly how each one of us thinks, and i trust them 100 percent (especially us 4 that show up constantly), but 2 drivers is just not in the question

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

Let me give some context for our situation. SO we are a small team. 13 students, but only 3-4 that show up on a constant basis. Every build season we barely finish the bot in time for bag day (in the case of last year, not even finish, and have to finish the thursday of our first regional. We don't have time to actually practice on the bot before our first regional, and definetly don't have a practice bot. That in addition to the fact that I'm the only person on the team (not bragging here, just facts) that has the required skills to be a driver, makes it simply not possible to have a 2 drivers that communicate flawlessly. Don't get me wrong. I love my team members, and we know exactly how each one of us thinks, and i trust them 100 percent (especially us 4 that show up constantly), but 2 drivers is just not in the question

I'm curious to what particular skill you possess the others don't.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I'm curious to what particular skill you possess the others don't.

Actually being able to use a controller for starters .

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

We've always had a driver and an operator. Like most teams, we realize that there is a lot to driving than just going from one location to the next. The driver needs to be aware of his/her surroundings and be able to make decisions of how to drive in regards to scoring, playing defense, getting around defense, etc. Because of this, our operator takes on the responsibilities that aren't directly tailored to driving such as manipulators, turrets, arms, or other mechanisms. The operator and driver must be on the same page(whether that be talking or just knowing what the other is thinking). For example if the driver is focused on grabbing a ball and the operator sees a robot coming in at full speed into the harvester, the operator needs to make the decision to lift the harvester up. Having the driver do this is not ideal based on everything else drivers need to be worrying about. That being said, the driver has controls of some mechanisms such as gearbox shifters or occasionally the scoring procedure(such as placing tube or shooting ball).

Overall though, if the driver and co pilot can't get on the same page, it's not going to work out very well. The best teams will be the ones who can allocate practice time to make sure that when competition comes around, the driver and co pilot are in sync and performing the best they can.

[Liu346]

Our team has run 2 drivers since the beginning of time. We attempt to take every opportunity to make it easy on the drivers as possible. Having 2 drivers almost seems necessary to play with a robot with both a drive train and a game piece manipulator. It also gives 2 eyes on the robot to make sure that everything is going according to plan. In my opinion unless your robot is as simple as a drive train and there should be 2 drivers.

[Amit3339]

We(team 3339) always used two drivers. There is no right or wrong with this question, I can say that I met a few teams that worked great with one driver and teams that liks us worked with only one and both had great results. The main point is that you should pick what is good for your team and stick with it.
As being the driver for the last three years I can say that the most crucial thing is the communication between the drivers(when you work with a pair). We usualy choose two people that have good communication(and of course are good at operating). After doing our selections we define the language between them so every element on the field and every robot operation will have a clear and short code name. After that.... it's just practice. I know it sounds easy when I say it but it's a proccess that takes time

[Amit3339]

Originally Posted by Ryan_Todd

To the best of my knowledge, Lightning Robotics has never fielded a single-driver robot in our 15 years of existence:

FIRST is about the Inspiration, after all, and limiting the drive team to a single student-- especially if your reason is to avoid the valuable learning experience of working closely with your peers in a high-pressure environment-- strikes me as a rather uninspiring policy to have.

...With that said, we usually divide the labor as follows:

"Driver"

• All drivetrain, all day!
• Closely related subsystems (like ramps/wedges, whose entire purpose is to help the robot to navigate the field obstacles) are sometimes bundled in as well.
• Interface is always composed of full-sized joysticks (one or two, depending on the style of drivetrain).
  • I don't care how much of a hardcore gamer you may be; a thumb stick on a hand-held game pad will never offer the kind of fine-grained control that you want for an FRC drivetrain, period.
• Above all else, we depend on the driver for consistency; on top of the usual selection requirements of driving skill and cooperative attitude, the ideal driver is completely impervious to pressure and distraction when they are "in the zone" during a competition match.

"Co-pilot"

• Controls everything else: arm, intake, shooter, what-have-you.
• Back in the days of serial ports, the co-pilot's interface usedto be custom-made: an array of knobs and buttons chosen specifically for that year's subsystems.
  • These days, we usually just give the co-pilot a handheld game pad and a printout of the button mappings.
• The co-pilot is expected to multi-task like a champion, managing several subsystems simultaneously; they must also exhibit exceptional adaptability, in order to cope with mechanism failures and [s]improvements[/s] changes made by the programming team in between matches.

"Drive Coach"

• Pretty much self-explanatory...
• Studies the large-scale goings-on around the field, and issues high-level commands to the drive team. Examples...
  • If the clock is running out: "One more shot, make it count!"
  • If we're defending against a powerhouse: "Hold 'em for 3... 2... 1... back!"
  • If we're crossing a defense, boulder in tow: "Batter shot, left side!"
  • If an ally gets stuck on a boulder: "Hey ####! You need help?"
    (And if the answer is yes) "Ok! After this shot, we go help ####."
• Selection criteria: preferably an alumnus with competition driving experience. Alternatively, someone with experience coaching or refereeing any sport will also do nicely.

Good explanation to how the roles are divided(usually). I have noticed that many teams don't use the drive coach as you mentioned, they let the drivers be "free" with their action and are gettin involved only when there is a certain unwanted situation. But again... every team have different methods. It's also depends on what drivers do you have? Do they like to be told what to do step by step and so on

[jijiglobe]

Originally Posted by Ryan_Todd

[*]I don't care how much of a hardcore gamer you may be; a thumb stick on a hand-held game pad will never offer the kind of fine-grained control that you want for an FRC drivetrain, period.

When you say it like that, I almost feel like I have no choice but to argue the contrary, and I will. I have found that with a little bit of practice on fine control (literally just holding a controller and practicing tiny movements) I have been able to achieve a high level of control ability with gamepad thumbsticks.

I have almost never used full-size control sticks to drive, but I will say what I think the pros of gamepads are (for driver):

1) Their intuitive. The gaming industry has invested a ridiculous amount of money into making controllers that are ergonomic and intuitive to use. Students that are used to gamepads will be able to reach a high level of proficiency fairly quickly (though, I admit, this is significantly mitigated by the fact that fine-grained control practice may be necessary). I think it's similar to how many teams opt to use a steering wheel to drive their robot. Students in areas where driving is a necessity may be very accustomed to this type of controller. Here in New York City, the driving age is 18 so that kind of controller is out of the question.

2) This one might seem a little crazy but does anyone else here get jittery on the field before a big match? Can't testify that this isn't just me but when I'm feeling jittery my arms and legs might shake, but my thumbs don't.

3) You can get gamepads that rumble... Could be useful for conveying sensor data... Just an idea we've been toying around with on 694...

4) Gamepads are convenient. Our entire driver station fits inside a small Pelican case (which I take great joy in kicking, throwing, and otherwise manhandling). Obviously not a huge issue, but still, I like convenience

I'm not saying that full-sized joysticks aren't viable (because they are) but I'm also definitely willing to argue that gamepads are just as viable.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by Ryan_Todd

I don't care how much of a hardcore gamer you may be; a thumb stick on a hand-held game pad will never offer the kind of fine-grained control that you want for an FRC drivetrain, period

Are you seriously kidding me. I use an xbox one controller on our bot. And i have been the driver for 2 years now. A stick on the Xbox one controller is more than enough for an frc drivetrain. Our intake is embedded inside of our bot, it dosen't extend. Which means I have to align the intake opening with the boulder almost perfectly to pick it up. Which requires pretty good precision, or the ball will just hit the bumpers and roll away... I'm using a xbox one controller, yet I can pick up boulders without even slowing down (given they aren't against a wall), and our bot hits 25+ ft/sec. Just because some people can't do it, dosen't mean everybody can't.... and no, I'm not a "hardcore" gamer... I don't even use a controller for gaming....

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by jijiglobe

When you say it like that, I almost feel like I have no choice but to argue the contrary, and I will. I have found that with a little bit of practice on fine control (literally just holding a controller and practicing tiny movements) I have been able to achieve a high level of control ability with gamepad thumbsticks.

I have almost never used full-size control sticks to drive, but I will say what I think the pros of gamepads are (for driver):

1) Their intuitive. The gaming industry has invested a ridiculous amount of money into making controllers that are ergonomic and intuitive to use. Students that are used to gamepads will be able to reach a high level of proficiency fairly quickly (though, I admit, this is significantly mitigated by the fact that fine-grained control practice may be necessary). I think it's similar to how many teams opt to use a steering wheel to drive their robot. Students in areas where driving is a necessity may be very accustomed to this type of controller. Here in New York City, the driving age is 18 so that kind of controller is out of the question.

2) This one might seem a little crazy but does anyone else here get jittery on the field before a big match? Can't testify that this isn't just me but when I'm feeling jittery my arms and legs might shake, but my thumbs don't.

3) You can get gamepads that rumble... Could be useful for conveying sensor data... Just an idea we've been toying around with on 694...

4) Gamepads are convenient. Our entire driver station fits inside a small Pelican case (which I take great joy in kicking, throwing, and otherwise manhandling). Obviously not a huge issue, but still, I like convenience

I'm not saying that full-sized joysticks aren't viable (because they are) but I'm also definitely willing to argue that gamepads are just as viable.

Agreed. We used a single controller this year for our entire bot.

We did actually use the rumble capability. Essentially when our shooter motors were moving fast enough to shoot it would rumble. The controller also did pulsating rumbles in the last 25 seconds of the Match to remind me to park on the batter. It was pretty useful.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by jijiglobe

2) This one might seem a little crazy but does anyone else here get jittery on the field before a big match? Can't testify that this isn't just me but when I'm feeling jittery my arms and legs might shake, but my thumbs don't.

Its not crazy at all. When we get to a regional, the first match, and maybe the second, (and also any key elimination match) my entire body will be shaking, but my hands are always steady.

[Pauline Tasci]

hey there!
3476 uses 2 drivers every year.
One operator in charge of the mechanism
one driver in charge of driving the robot on the field.

We find this best since all the pressure to perform is not on one person and we tend to use a lot of buttons for our extensive design features.

Personally when I was a student I was a driver and found relief in the fact that I just had to get the robot over there and someone else was there to pick up some weight.