F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

[notmattlythgoe]

We can/will answer pretty much any question accurately.

That is a very bold statement to make considering how many "professionals" on CD make incorrect statements all the time.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

That is a very bold statement to make considering how many "professionals" on CD make incorrect statements all the time.

That is actually another interesting point, is this a factual help service or is this more just trying to be like a supporting group.
Just being there for someone in a time of need is great, but bad information can lead to some nasty things. We all know chief delphi isn't the GDC and delphis interpretation of the manual and the GDCs interpretation are different.

[dirtbikerxz]

I guess I can kind of get the point of F4 connect if it was strictly students talking to other students about social issues.... but then again I really don't, what if a student gets a wrong advice: Student 1: "Me and my mentor aren't getting along what do I do?" Student 2: "Oh just make a new team." Student 1: "Okay!...... "

Except for in a few specific questions, I really don't see the point of not getting advice from multiple sources including multiple students and multiple mentors....

And definitely not for technical questions. Who cares if you have a pretty simple question, no one is going to say "oh you don't know how to enable the bot, get out of here"... While CD might be condescending sometimes, there is much more good than bad.

And don't even get started that you can "answer all questions accurately". I'm a high school student, I'm going to be a junior in the fall.... and I will bet all my money that you can't. It's simple logic. We are students, we have only existed for a maximum of 18 or so years. THERE IS NO WAY THAT WE HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCE AS THE MENTORS OF 50 AGE WHO DO THIS FOR A LIVING. (and here come the red dots )

Please don't give advice to a student somewhere that could get him/her in serious trouble or something like that.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

Interesting my concern with it would be what happens when someone asks a question that is... outside of the scope of the group I guess.
I always felt mandatory reporter laws have a certain weight to them that I wouldn't want imposed on a student.

Yup, we saw this as a big issue. We wrote up this as a disclaimer which everyone is prompted to agree with.

F4 Connect is a student run group for helping people with questions about robotics. While we are here to help, we do not assume any responsibility for harm or injury caused by the advice given (or lack thereof). By submitting this form you agree that any action taken upon the advice given is at your own risk. Any cases the F4 Connect team thinks are potentially harmful (including, but not limited to: suicide, self harm, criminal problems, etc.) may not be answered, and have potential to be reported to the proper authorities.

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

That is actually another interesting point, is this a factual help service or is this more just trying to be like a supporting group.
Just being there for someone in a time of need is great, but bad information can lead to some nasty things. We all know chiefdelphi isn't the GDC and delphis interpretation of the manual and the GDCs interpretation are different.

We plan on addressing mostly questions regarding team issues. When build season rolls around we will most likely get things like rule interpretation questions which we will probably respond with either a Q and A response or a quote from the manual with no interpretation. When it comes to engineering help we will ensure validity on our end and if no one is qualified to answer a question we will point them in the right direction.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

I guess I can kind of get the point of F4 connect if it was strictly students talking to other students about social issues.... but then again I really don't, what if a student gets a wrong advice: Student 1: "Me and my mentor aren't getting along what do I do?" Student 2: "Oh just make a new team." Student 1: "Okay!...... "

Except for in a few specific questions, I really don't see the point of not getting advice from multiple sources including multiple students and multiple mentors....

And definitely not for technical questions. Who cares if you have a pretty simple question, no one is going to say "oh you don't know how to enable the bot, get out of here"... While CD might be condescending sometimes, there is much more good than bad.

And don't even get started that you can "answer all questions accurately". I'm a high school student, I'm going to be a junior in the fall.... and I will bet all my money that you can't. It's simple logic. We are students, we have only existed for a maximum of 18 or so years. THERE IS NO WAY THAT WE HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCE AS THE MENTORS OF 50 AGE WHO DO THIS FOR A LIVING. (and here come the red dots )

Please don't give advice to a student somewhere that could get him/her in serious trouble or something like that.

Well first of all we are here to give correct advice. We will never give a preposterous answer like you demonstrated. There are many situations in FRC where people are not comfortable using a message board. Hence the large quantity of anonymous accounts.

Actually people will say hah you do not know how to enable the bot get out of here. I encourage you to read some of the responses to threads early in the season they generally are the most condescending. Some people also have simple questions they do not want tied to their team. Say a team has no idea how to connect the radio. They are a 4 year team but the seniors who started the team graduated. That team does not want to make themselves look bad asking a simple question.

Your last few points particularly are alarming to me. To start just because you do not know something does not mean none of us do you can not generalize high school students and say they will always be less knowledgeable then adults. Next point is even more alarming. There are mentors who have been in FRC for dozens of years yet cant get their team to field a working robot. Are there mentors more knowledgeable then all of us combined absolutely. But there are also plenty who know much less.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Well first of all we are here to give correct advice. We will never give a preposterous answer like you demonstrated. There are many situations in FRC where people are not comfortable using a message board. Hence the large quantity of anonymous accounts.

The example was a joke, but even though I dislike the use of anonymous accounts, atleast they are still getting help from the entire knowledge base of CD.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Your last few points particularly are alarming to me. To start just because you do not know something does not mean none of us do you can not generalize high school students and say they will always be less knowledgeable then adults. Next point is even more alarming. There are mentors who have been in FRC for dozens of years yet cant get their team to field a working robot. Are there mentors more knowledgeable then all of us combined absolutely. But there are also plenty who know much less.

The fact that you said that alarms me and hints at some arrogance that you might (or might not) have. Also you contradicted your first statement with your second. You said that the group of all of you will have the required knowledge, and just because I don't know it doesn't mean you don't... Well I sure hope that you have more than I do, because I know for a fact the I (or my entire team combined, including the mentors, for that matter) don't have enough knowledge. And also when you yourself said that one mentor might have more knowledge than all of you combined, how can you still say that you will be able to answer everything. If someone can have MORE knowledge that you, than that means you don't know everything...... And that is the point of cd, so that both the good mentors (and students) can give their good advice, and the mentors and students with bad advice can get told that their advice is bad... So the OP only listens to the good advice, oh and the bad advice people also learn the proper advice for future use... its a win win

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

The example was a joke, but even though I dislike the use of anonymous accounts, atleast they are still getting help from the entire knowledge base of CD.

The fact that you said that alarms me and hints at some arrogance that you might (or might not) have. Also you contradicted your first statement with your second. You said that the group of all of you will have the required knowledge, and just because I don't know it doesn't mean you don't... Well I sure hope that you have more than I do, because I know for a fact the I (or my entire team combined, including the mentors, for that matter) don't have enough knowledge. And also when you yourself said that one mentor might have more knowledge than all of you combined, how can you still say that you will be able to answer everything. If someone can have MORE knowledge that you, than that means you don't know everything...... And that is the point of cd, so that both the good mentors (and students) can give their good advice, and the mentors and students with bad advice can get told that their advice is bad... So the OP only listens to the good advice, oh and the bad advice people also learn the proper advice for future use... its a win win

Almost every single one of our members use Chiefdelphi for a good reason. What it does not offer (Personal Help, and Anonymity) is what we are offering with Connect.

[bkahl]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Almost every single one of our members use Chiefdelphi for a good reason. What it does not offer (Personal Help, and Anonymity) is what we are offering with Connect.

What about technical questions?

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by bkahl

What about technical questions?

When I say personal help I mean something like a Skype call.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

That is a very bold statement to make considering how many "professionals" on CD make incorrect statements all the time.

As an aspiring professional BS'er I'm going to have to take this as a compliment.

[bkahl]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

When I say personal help I mean something like a Skype call.

I'm still confused about how ONE STUDENT (because unless you Google doc every single questionor something, it's more than likely one person will answer any given question) will provide a more knowledgeable, experienced, thought out answer than the literal thousands of minds lurking around here.

(The correct answer is they won't)

Listen Sam, I (kind of) understand what you are trying to do here, it just has too many flaws. I'm worried that some students will see this and forget about the larger mode knowledgeable database that Chief Delphi has become. If they come to rely on this service rather than the little 'search' option you can find at the top of this very page (because let's be real, if something has happened, I'm sure you can read about it somewhere on CD), we are all doing something wrong. If every single one of your members uses CD for good reasons, shouldn't you be encouraging others to do the same?

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by bkahl

I'm still confused about how ONE STUDENT (because unless you Google doc every single questionor something, it's more than likely one person will answer any given question) will provide a more knowledgeable, experienced, thought out answer than the literal thousands of minds lurking around here.

(The correct answer is they won't)

Listen Sam, I (kind of) understand what you are trying to do here, it just has too many flaws. I'm worried that some students will see this and forget about the larger mode knowledgeable database that Chief Delphi has become. If they come to rely on this service rather than the little 'search' option (because let's be real, if something has happened, I'm sure you can read about it somewhere on CD) you can find at the top of this very page, we are all doing something wrong. If every single one of your members uses CD for good reasons, shouldn't you be encouraging others to do the same?

Well actually we do "Google doc" every question. Everything is through a shared Google form which goes into our shared folder. I probably will not answer too many questions. Although I am generally the public voice of f4 I don't even do close to everything. We are a team and behave like one.

We are not trying to be chiefdelphi at all. We think that the only effect it will have on it is less anonymous accounts and simple questions.

[Conor Ryan]

What are some sample questions that the F4 Connect community has prepared?

I'm interested in the types of questions they want to answer, the level of detail in the response and the transparency involved.

In a perfect world, this would be like a curated wiki where the community would help improve answers.

[smitikshah]

The point of F4 Connect, as understood by someone who was involved in helping getting the idea off the ground, was as Sam said, to offer anonymous help for anyone who would welcome our opinion. After noticing the amount of threads about team relations in addition to the anonymous accounts thread, we decided to create a solution. We aren't looking to replace CD in the slightest, especially on technical views, but simply offer a more personal spin on answers. Using this source doesn't mean the student can't also post on CD and get more "professional" help. We were simply looking to help out the community in the way that we could.

[g_sawchuk]

F4 "Connect". The name is ironic. Sure, you're "connecting" with individuals on a small scale. However, the concept , unintentionally, removes the greater connection, the connection that formulates the FIRST community.

The community of FIRST is undoubtedly important. It's been referenced many times by FRC staff on the blog, FIRST participants tend to hold it as a value, it is a core construct of what FIRST is.

However, F4 Connect could unintentionally take away from the formation of this greater community. If someone posts a problem on ChiefDelphi, they're instantly exposed to hundreds of individuals. Many people will come out to help them with their problem, lending their varying degrees of expertise to solve a problem. How do they do it? By working as a group, a community. Not only that, but a person who is instantly reached out to by members of the CD community (note, plural, not just a singular individual) definitely feels supported by fellow FIRSTers. This helps tie them into the FIRST community. Community growth is essential to FIRST's success. This community is what compiles mentors, participants, sponsors, spectators, and volunteers alike.

Emulating what others have already said, it can undoubtedly be said that a group of individuals, with the varying expertise that CD can lend, can contribute more valuable and accurate/consistent input than a single individual, or a group of six students. While students can be very knowledgeable, you're completely sectioning major parts of FIRST out from putting in input. You narrow down input to one perspective, possibly leading to inaccurate information.

Lastly, F4 Connect limits the potential of a fantastic resource being formed. By keeping everything private, someone with the same problem is unable to search through a past resource, and find help.

While F4 Connect is made with good intentions, this may end up hurting, as opposed to helping, the FIRST community.