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  #76   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-06-2016, 16:32
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Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

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Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
That sounds like "We don't want mentors."



That sounds like "We don't not want mentors."

I'll wait for you to make up your mind before I decide what I think of this latest proposed Balkanization of the community.
If you combine the two quotes, you end up with:
"Currently our group is students only and we want to keep it that way. Its not that mentors experience is not wanted it just happens to be that we are a student only community."
That makes sense to me. Mentor experience is wanted in general, but not in F4. That doesn't mean that F4 wants to cut out mentors, it just means that it recognizes there are some things students may not want to talk about with their mentors, just as there are some things mentors do not want to talk about with students.
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Unread 02-06-2016, 16:39
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Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

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Originally Posted by ASD20 View Post
An example: A team is looking to design a custom drive train for the first time. They are connected to someone who has worked on custom drive train design for their team for the last few years. Over the course of a few weeks, the team exchanges CAD files and other design ideas with the person, who provides some feedback and shares some of the lessons and tricks he has learned from his own prior experiences designing drive trains. Would the advice provided be perfect? No, and it shouldn't be expected to be. However, I would say it would be reasonable to assume that the final product would be better than without advice.
So here's my worry about this. High school students are busy. My fear is that there will be students on teams needing a lot of help who put their trust in F4 Connect, and become connected with a "mini-mentor" student. Sure this might seem good at first and the student in need can get some help and advice, but what happens when there gets to be too much on the "mini-mentor"'s plate? Let's say it's the middle of his/her junior year. There are so many more important things that the "mini-mentor" should prioritize in life: school work, college/SAT/ACT/AP prep, their own FRC team, an actual job, other extracurriculars and sports, family life, and yeah, even socializing with friends. Once all of this piles up, either the "mini-mentor" doesn't have time to help the student and leaves them even worse off than they were before, or the "mini-mentor" prioritizes poorly and falls behind on their homework, job hours, or even getting out of the house to have some fun. Then it'll all fall down just like the fragile game this concept seems to be named after.



Trust the mentors that have been posting on this thread. One thing that mentors will always have over high school students is that we've all been there. We get it. Some of us made good choices, others made bad choices, and we've seen where they have led us. We've made our mistakes and have learned from them, and are now giving our advice to help you. High school is an important time of your life when really you should just be focusing on you. The social aspect of high school is just as important as the school work side of it. You''ll have plenty of time to mentor others once you graduate. But for now, don't bite off more than you can chew. Do your homework, prepare for college, enjoy your time with your family. And don't forget to get outside and have some fun. There's so much more to life than FRC.

I like it the idea, really. It's a good concept on paper but I'm afraid the execution won't be as easy as it sounds. Leave the mentoring to the mentors.
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Unread 02-06-2016, 16:41
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Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

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Once all of this piles up, either the "mini-mentor" doesn't have time to help the student and leaves them even worse off than they were before, or the "mini-mentor" prioritizes poorly and falls behind on their homework, job hours, or even getting out of the house to have some fun. Then it'll all fall down just like the fragile game this concept seems to be named after.



.
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Unread 02-06-2016, 16:48
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Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

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Originally Posted by Hallry View Post
So here's my worry about this. High school students are busy. My fear is that there will be students on teams needing a lot of help who put their trust in F4 Connect, and become connected with a "mini-mentor" student. Sure this might seem good at first and the student in need can get some help and advice, but what happens when there gets to be too much on the "mini-mentor"'s plate? Let's say it's the middle of his/her junior year. There are so many more important things that the "mini-mentor" should prioritize in life: school work, college/SAT/ACT/AP prep, their own FRC team, an actual job, other extracurriculars and sports, family life, and yeah, even socializing with friends. Once all of this piles up, either the "mini-mentor" doesn't have time to help the student and leaves them even worse off than they were before, or the "mini-mentor" prioritizes poorly and falls behind on their homework, job hours, or even getting out of the house to have some fun. Then it'll all fall down just like the fragile game this concept seems to be named after.



Trust the mentors that have been posting on this thread. One thing that mentors will always have over high school students is that we've all been there. We get it. Some of us made good choices, others made bad choices, and we've seen where they have led us. We've made our mistakes and have learned from them, and are now giving our advice to help you. High school is an important time of your life when really you should just be focusing on you. The social aspect of high school is just as important as the school work side of it. You''ll have plenty of time to mentor others once you graduate. But for now, don't bite off more than you can chew. Do your homework, prepare for college, enjoy your time with your family. And don't forget to get outside and have some fun. There's so much more to life than FRC.

I like it the idea, really. It's a good concept on paper but I'm afraid the execution won't be as easy as it sounds. Leave the mentoring to the mentors.

So much yes.
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Unread 02-06-2016, 16:53
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Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

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Originally Posted by Hallry View Post
So here's my worry about this. High school students are busy. My fear is that there will be students on teams needing a lot of help who put their trust in F4 Connect, and become connected with a "mini-mentor" student. Sure this might seem good at first and the student in need can get some help and advice, but what happens when there gets to be too much on the "mini-mentor"'s plate? Let's say it's the middle of his/her junior year. There are so many more important things that the "mini-mentor" should prioritize in life: school work, college/SAT/ACT/AP prep, their own FRC team, an actual job, other extracurriculars and sports, family life, and yeah, even socializing with friends. Once all of this piles up, either the "mini-mentor" doesn't have time to help the student and leaves them even worse off than they were before, or the "mini-mentor" prioritizes poorly and falls behind on their homework, job hours, or even getting out of the house to have some fun. Then it'll all fall down just like the fragile game this concept seems to be named after.



Trust the mentors that have been posting on this thread. One thing that mentors will always have over high school students is that we've all been there. We get it. Some of us made good choices, others made bad choices, and we've seen where they have led us. We've made our mistakes and have learned from them, and are now giving our advice to help you. High school is an important time of your life when really you should just be focusing on you. The social aspect of high school is just as important as the school work side of it. You''ll have plenty of time to mentor others once you graduate. But for now, don't bite off more than you can chew. Do your homework, prepare for college, enjoy your time with your family. And don't forget to get outside and have some fun. There's so much more to life than FRC.

I like it the idea, really. It's a good concept on paper but I'm afraid the execution won't be as easy as it sounds. Leave the mentoring to the mentors.
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Unread 02-06-2016, 16:54
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Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

These are good points about the pros and cons of "mini-mentors". Given the issues that might arise from this (the least of which being experience) I agree that maybe it's not the right fit for Connect, but we'll bring it up for discussion.
Please keep the ideas coming!
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Unread 02-06-2016, 17:06
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Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

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Originally Posted by Hallry View Post
1. So here's my worry about this. High school students are busy. My fear is that there will be students on teams needing a lot of help who put their trust in F4 Connect, and become connected with a "mini-mentor" student. Sure this might seem good at first and the student in need can get some help and advice, but what happens when there gets to be too much on the "mini-mentor"'s plate? Let's say it's the middle of his/her junior year. There are so many more important things that the "mini-mentor" should prioritize in life: school work, college/SAT/ACT/AP prep, their own FRC team, an actual job, other extracurriculars and sports, family life, and yeah, even socializing with friends. Once all of this piles up, either the "mini-mentor" doesn't have time to help the student and leaves them even worse off than they were before, or the "mini-mentor" prioritizes poorly and falls behind on their homework, job hours, or even getting out of the house to have some fun. Then it'll all fall down just like the fragile game this concept seems to be named after.

2. I like it the idea, really. It's a good concept on paper but I'm afraid the execution won't be as easy as it sounds. Leave the mentoring to the mentors.
1. I don't think it would really take up that much time, maybe a few hours total over the course of several weeks. It certainly would be no time compared to how much time most students spend working on their own robot. However, everyone manages their time differently, so while I think I would have been able to handle it, there are probably a lot of kids who could not handle it as well.

2. I completely agree that it would be hard and that is why I am merely suggesting it as opposed to doing it myself (and I won't be a student next year).

While the details and execution definitely need some refining, overall I think this is more of an under-served area of help than general technical questions and is one where people don't have to be experts to make a meaningful contribution to the community, making it an interesting and useful thing for students to do.
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Unread 02-06-2016, 17:16
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Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

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Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
That sounds like "We don't want mentors."



That sounds like "We don't not want mentors."

I'll wait for you to make up your mind before I decide what I think of this latest proposed Balkanization of the community.
I've seen this sentiment disappear in many as they become adults and are suddenly mentor age.

Sometimes students that aggressively push for student only just want to be the smartest guy in the room for ego reasons.

No idea if that's the case here or not.
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Unread 02-06-2016, 17:21
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Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

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Originally Posted by AdamHeard View Post
I've seen this sentiment disappear in many as they become adults and are suddenly mentor age.

Sometimes students that aggressively push for student only just want to be the smartest guy in the room for ego reasons.

No idea if that's the case here or not.
As much as possible we're trying to make sure we don't overstep our boundaries. I agree that it's definitely more of a problem in students than in adults and F4 tries to limit it's involvement in things that are beyond it.
There seems to be an agreement in F4 right now about making sure we're "conservative" with how we help people, by putting students in contact with mentors on CD or advising them on where they can receive more detailed help. I think that would aid in alleviating a lot of worries we've seen in this thread, thoughts?
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Unread 02-06-2016, 17:21
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Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

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Originally Posted by AdamHeard View Post
I've seen this sentiment disappear in many as they become adults and are suddenly mentor age.

Sometimes students that aggressively push for student only just want to be the smartest guy in the room for ego reasons.

No idea if that's the case here or not.
In our discussions, we have equal, level-headed discussions about various things. It is not a defined thing about someone being better than anyone else, but rather that we can all discuss the robots we love (and other things as well) with our peers.
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Unread 02-06-2016, 17:25
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Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

Firstly, I am not associated with F4 in any manner. Also, I intend none of the following as a direct attack on any poster.

That being said, I am disappointed by some of the responses in this thread. F4, from my understanding from previous posts and their web series, is a specifically student run group. Adult mentors do advise, but the group is intentionally student run.

As to respond to some points made in this thread:

It is not my impression that any member of F4 or the wider FRC community is attempting to usurp CD as the go to place for technical information. Further, I would expect those answering on Connect to reference CD or suggest it for more in depth discussion.

I remember what it was like to first post here on CD. I remember what it was like to get my first dots (they were red). Chief Delphi attempts to remain an open community but nonetheless it is difficult to post on when you are new and I still find it difficult to approach mentors who I know have vast experience for fear of appearing dumb or ignorant. In addition, we all know of threads that have gotten out of control and had to be locked, and seeing these threads only increases previously stated anxieties. Whether you judge it to be just, there are times when students only feel comfortable talking to other students.

Finally, any criticisms of students directly (not of F4 as a whole, but targeted towards specific students), comments suggesting negative aspects to an individual's decisions or actions, or comments suggesting that students are incompetent should be kept in a private message. No student will feel comfortable coming to a mentor for advice if the mentor tells them they are incompetent.
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Unread 02-06-2016, 17:40
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Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

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No student will feel comfortable coming to a mentor for advice if the mentor tells them they are incompetent.
Not saying this is what's happening in the thread, moreso rambling in a tangential direction.

What if a student is incompetent? By definition, don't nearly all students start out as incompetent? Students should strive to reach the point of maturity where such feedback can be received without internalizing it as a direct attack. This is a hard part about growing up obviously, and takes time (certainly took me some time!).
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Unread 02-06-2016, 17:56
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Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

I won't bother reading the entire argument, but I feel like the concept of "don't like it, don't use it" applies pretty well here.
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Unread 02-06-2016, 18:25
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Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

Seems like a groovy idea. IIRC, things along the same lines have been proposed in the past.

I'm sure at times it could be easier to use F4 Connect rather than tunneling through the depths of Chief or starting a new thread. I wouldn't be surprised if people have avoided asking questions on Chief in the past out of worry that they'd start a classic CD mosh pit, like the one on this thread and many others before it; or that they'd get some sort of abrasive comment about how all they've done is rehashed a previously discussed topic of question (rather than getting legitimate answers) and should have looked harder before making the thread- both of which I have seen. Or maybe Connect could be easier and faster for a student who doesn't have time to or wish to spend time going on Chief to ask a question and to see if their question has been answer.

It's been established that it's not a novice group of students that are answering. Students can provide helpful and knowledgeable answers to other students. That said, I would be interested to know the percentage of correct answers to incorrect, as well as question-to-answer time length, because that's really what's important if you want to compare and contrast it heavily to Chief Delphi's resources.

When it comes to the safety of the students, I would like to see some of the more personal ways of contact taken off the list of ways to receive answers. Things like a CD PM or email are much more safe and professional medias than phone and texting.

Chief is and always will be the best place for FIRST info and discussions, but at the end of the day, F4 could be helpful too and made to work practically. To me, the only thing about Chief Delphi that it could threaten is the egos. It's still in beta and is still very new, I'd hate to see it get shot down so quickly.

Last edited by Aidan Cox : 02-06-2016 at 18:27.
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Unread 02-06-2016, 18:26
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Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

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What if a student is incompetent? By definition, don't nearly all students start out as incompetent? Students should strive to reach the point of maturity where such feedback can be received without internalizing it as a direct attack. This is a hard part about growing up obviously, and takes time (certainly took me some time!).
Four years from now our robot kids will realize that four years ago they didn't know Jack, and that plenty of mentors were trying to help them realize it.

Four years is double the lifecycle of a lot of technical knowledge, particularly with bleeding-edge programming.

(not related to F4 or this initiative, of which I too am curious to see the results)
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