F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

[piersklein]

Firstly, I am not associated with F4 in any manner. Also, I intend none of the following as a direct attack on any poster.

That being said, I am disappointed by some of the responses in this thread. F4, from my understanding from previous posts and their web series, is a specifically student run group. Adult mentors do advise, but the group is intentionally student run.

As to respond to some points made in this thread:

It is not my impression that any member of F4 or the wider FRC community is attempting to usurp CD as the go to place for technical information. Further, I would expect those answering on Connect to reference CD or suggest it for more in depth discussion.

I remember what it was like to first post here on CD. I remember what it was like to get my first dots (they were red). Chief Delphi attempts to remain an open community but nonetheless it is difficult to post on when you are new and I still find it difficult to approach mentors who I know have vast experience for fear of appearing dumb or ignorant. In addition, we all know of threads that have gotten out of control and had to be locked, and seeing these threads only increases previously stated anxieties. Whether you judge it to be just, there are times when students only feel comfortable talking to other students.

Finally, any criticisms of students directly (not of F4 as a whole, but targeted towards specific students), comments suggesting negative aspects to an individual's decisions or actions, or comments suggesting that students are incompetent should be kept in a private message. No student will feel comfortable coming to a mentor for advice if the mentor tells them they are incompetent.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by piersklein

No student will feel comfortable coming to a mentor for advice if the mentor tells them they are incompetent.

Not saying this is what's happening in the thread, moreso rambling in a tangential direction.

What if a student is incompetent? By definition, don't nearly all students start out as incompetent? Students should strive to reach the point of maturity where such feedback can be received without internalizing it as a direct attack. This is a hard part about growing up obviously, and takes time (certainly took me some time!).

[JG1902]

I won't bother reading the entire argument, but I feel like the concept of "don't like it, don't use it" applies pretty well here.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

What if a student is incompetent? By definition, don't nearly all students start out as incompetent? Students should strive to reach the point of maturity where such feedback can be received without internalizing it as a direct attack. This is a hard part about growing up obviously, and takes time (certainly took me some time!).

Four years from now our robot kids will realize that four years ago they didn't know Jack, and that plenty of mentors were trying to help them realize it.

Four years is double the lifecycle of a lot of technical knowledge, particularly with bleeding-edge programming.

(not related to F4 or this initiative, of which I too am curious to see the results)

[Steven Smith]

To the OP:

So in this thread, as is typical on CD (as you know), you have a combination of prudent advice, snarky comments, and a bit of sensationalism. Technical topics tend to draw out less of it. Topics where there are stronger differences of opinion, or an "us vs. them" feel can draw out stronger responses. I do feel (though could understand if a newer member doesn't) an underlying respect for each other within the CD community, so I am able to overlook some of the negative and come away with a net positive.

I agree that it can be a deterrent and intimidating to students. I think I understand what you are attempting to achieve with the F4 Connect. I can see an independent forum with a dedicated group of students that are sensitive to how student questions are answered as providing some positive outcomes.

I won't go through and echo every comment, but the ones regarding privacy and duty to report are worth heeding though, and a "disclaimer" does not absolve you of everything legally. Even if it did, if the net effect of the poor advice or privacy breach was a student being left in a dangerous situation or making a poor decision, the damage is still done. Mentoring is a skill in and of itself, and we all learned by observing and working with other mentors, bouncing ideas off "more senior" mentors when our knowledge falls short. I would encourage you to continue to do the same.

Regardless of your experience starting the F4 Connect community, I would always encourage people to first look at building up an existing platform before attempting to create something new from scratch. Whether intentional or not, every attempt to improve an existing platform by creating a new invariably fragments a user base more. Chief Delphi is likely not going anywhere soon. If you want to improve the dialogue in a shared mentor/student forum, you can do so by preempting posts with well worded answers to that new member that doesn't search before posting. I personally believe a better solution to the problem (which again, I agree exists) is for students like yourself to encourage students to join CD, and to do your best to provide feedback, even when there is a chance someone may disagree with it.

Either way, best of luck. Maybe as you suggest, you can use it as a way to drive students to existing resources, or to help coach them as they join the larger FIRST community and CD.

[asid61]

Originally Posted by Aidan Cox

It's been established that it's not a novice group of students that are answering. Students can provide helpful and knowledgeable answers to other students. That said, I would be interested to know the percentage of correct answers to incorrect, as well as question-to-answer time length, because that's really what's important if you want to compare and contrast it heavily to Chief Delphi's resources.

When it comes to the safety of the students, I would like to see some of the more personal ways of contact taken off the list of ways to receive answers. Things like a CD PM or email are much more safe and professional medias than phone and texting.

Thank you, we'll look into getting some absolute statistics. We're thinking of also having a segment at the beginning each regular F4 show that has some of the questions and answers on it (with permission, of course) so that others can hear about them.

Originally Posted by Steven Smith

To the OP:

I won't go through and echo every comment, but the ones regarding privacy and duty to report are worth heeding though, and a "disclaimer" does not absolve you of everything legally. Even if it did, if the net effect of the poor advice or privacy breach was a student being left in a dangerous situation or making a poor decision, the damage is still done. Mentoring is a skill in and of itself, and we all learned by observing and working with other mentors, bouncing ideas off "more senior" mentors when our knowledge falls short. I would encourage you to continue to do the same.

Regardless of your experience starting the F4 Connect community, I would always encourage people to first look at building up an existing platform before attempting to create something new from scratch. Whether intentional or not, every attempt to improve an existing platform by creating a new invariably fragments a user base more. Chief Delphi is likely not going anywhere soon. If you want to improve the dialogue in a shared mentor/student forum, you can do so by preempting posts with well worded answers to that new member that doesn't search before posting. I personally believe a better solution to the problem (which again, I agree exists) is for students like yourself to encourage students to join CD, and to do your best to provide feedback, even when there is a chance someone may disagree with it.

Either way, best of luck. Maybe as you suggest, you can use it as a way to drive students to existing resources, or to help coach them as they join the larger FIRST community and CD.

Thank you. As I posted earlier, we're trying to be very conservative with F4 Connect. Posting on Chief, contacting Senior Mentors, contacting regular mentors who know what they're doing are on our list of places to direct students, either in companion to or as a replacement to talking to a student.
I think we can all agree CD is a scary place sometimes. Connect can also serve as a place to help students join the community and overlook the occasional anger/rants here.

[Dave McLaughlin]

Originally Posted by asid61

Thank you. As I posted earlier, we're trying to be very conservative with F4 Connect. Posting on Chief, contacting Senior Mentors, contacting regular mentors who know what they're doing are on our list of places to direct students, either in companion to or as a replacement to talking to a student.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4OvQIGDg4I

[asid61]

Originally Posted by Dave McLaughlin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4OvQIGDg4I

Thanks for your question.
As others have posted before, many students don't have the heart to post on CD or know who to best contact directly. A student on a team that doesn't have a lot of contact with the outside FIRST world wouldn't know things that we take for granted, like knowing that Senior Mentors exist, who Karthik and Libby K are, or even that CD exists. In all fairness, we don't have much of a way to solve that last one (although we are working on it) but for many it's easier to reach out to a student than to an adult directly.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by asid61

Thanks for your question.
As others have posted before, many students don't have the heart to post on CD or know who to best contact directly. A student on a team that doesn't have a lot of contact with the outside FIRST world wouldn't know things that we take for granted, like knowing that Senior Mentors exist, who Karthik and Libby K are, or even that CD exists. In all fairness, we don't have much of a way to solve that last one (although we are working on it) but for many it's easier to reach out to a student than to an adult directly.

Then why not create a platform that uplifts existing sources of information instead of creating one that fractures it? How do you expect that perceived problem to be solved?

Also since you haven't responded to my previous inquiry yet, would you consider what I just said to be "flaming"?

[asid61]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Then why not create a platform that uplifts existing sources of information instead if creating one that fractures it? How do you expect that perceived problem to be solved?

Also since you haven't responded to my previous inquiry yet, would you consider what I just said to be "flaming"?

I thought I explained in my previous post; F4 Connect will also put people in contact with resources other than students. I'm not sure how that's fracturing, maybe you could elaborate?

I consider "flaming" to be any post or part of a post that does not add to the thread and is derogatory. There have been "flaming" posts, both mild and harsh, in this thread. I've PM'd you to avoid derailing.

[Dave McLaughlin]

Originally Posted by asid61

Thanks for your question.
As others have posted before, many students don't have the heart to post on CD or know who to best contact directly. A student on a team that doesn't have a lot of contact with the outside FIRST world wouldn't know things that we take for granted, like knowing that Senior Mentors exist, who Karthik and Libby K are, or even that CD exists. In all fairness, we don't have much of a way to solve that last one (although we are working on it) but for many it's easier to reach out to a student than to an adult directly.

The stated methodology for achieving the vision and mission of FRC is to "Engage kids in kindergarten through high school in exciting, Mentor-based, research and robotics programs that help them become science and technology leaders, as well as well-rounded contributors to society."

I'm all for the empowerment and involvement of students. However, learning how to ask mentors for help is important.

Why does your organization think that creating this mode of support is greater value added to the community than attempting to make Chief Delphi more accessible to students?

[asid61]

Originally Posted by Dave McLaughlin

The stated methodology for achieving the vision and mission of FRC is to "Engage kids in kindergarten through high school in exciting, Mentor-based, research and robotics programs that help them become science and technology leaders, as well as well-rounded contributors to society."

I'm all for the empowerment and involvement of students. However, learning how to ask mentors for help is important.

Why does your organization think that creating this mode of support is greater value added to the community than attempting to make Chief Delphi more accessible to students?

I agree that learning to ask for help from people you don't know is important, which is why if a student is put in contact with one through Connect they might grow to be more ok with asking outside their regular "circles" in the future. I think of F4 Connect as a possible step to take on the way to becoming more well-rounded.

Making Chief Delphi more accessible to students is a vastly more difficult task than streamlining how they get in; if it was that easy, how come not every team has a CD account? Many people are put off by the amount of hostility they see here sometimes and choose not to make an account or contact people for that reason. Connect serves as a more relateable place for students to get help and start getting used to the FRC community at large.
I believe we are making CD more accessible through this, only not in a direct way.

[Dave McLaughlin]

Originally Posted by asid61

Making Chief Delphi more accessible to students is a vastly more difficult task than streamlining how they get in...

Why?

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Dave McLaughlin

Why?

It's the cultural equivalent of eliminating bullying in every school across America. No matter how hard we try it's probably going to be more or less the same.

[Dave McLaughlin]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

It's the cultural equivalent of eliminating bullying in every school across America. No matter how hard we try it's probably going to be more or less the same.

So it would then follow that your goal is not to make CD more accessible, but to construct an alternative environment that you can control to be a "safe space." Or is this conclusion incorrect?