The negative effects of FRC

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

The amount of time FIRST teams spend and the level of competition these days is way beyond what it ever was when I was in high school. Back then, your average team had a reasonable shot at winning. Nowadays, you're average team doesn't stand a chance in my mind. It's become a competition of who can spend more hours.

This is so true!
In addition, teams are competing in more events than the normal 1-2 in a season back in the day.
Districts imo have created a great inequality both with respect to cost and play time vs. teams that compete in regionals. We have to work so much harder to get equal playing time!

Wait til bag/tag is eliminated (assuming here), you can bet that the average team of old wont have a shot at making eliminations.

[SpaceBiz]

Originally Posted by fargus111111111

The level of stress, for me, is what moves FRC beyond the average science fair.

The level of stress and pressure along with necessary amount of preparation, strategy, and dedication are what set FRC apart from almost all other non- athletic competitions. This is why Robotics is the only organization in our school where I would compare our team's successes to those of other school sports teams.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by The other Gabe

don't matter how well you plan lunch if it's cancelled due to the event running behind

Planning well doesn't involve relying on the lunch break. This should be better advertised to rookie teams especially, but hopefully most veteran mentors understand how unreliable it is.

Fortunately, even in small (district-size) events, teams don't play every match. There's is always a way to get everyone fed, but you need to prioritize and plan and/or adapt well. I've been pit lead/supervisor and operator/coach simultaneously, as both student and mentor, leading understaffed crews through dozens events ranging from small districts to Einstein and including full elim runs with major lunchtime robot rebuilds. More illustratively, I've been a referee (dual-hatted inspector) at events that don't have a backup ref and cancelled the lunch break. Meaning we literally must be reffing every single match that's played--and we still eat at resets. Don't just give up; it takes teamwork but you can't simply write off teammate health. (This isn't to say I haven't previously written off my own nutrition, sometimes because I was wrong and sometimes because I'd get nauseous.)

Don't trust the lunch break and don't trust the venue guards or food lines or unknown prices. Sometimes lunch/dinner means taking food into venues (which is not always feasible), squirreling it away in robot carts (more foolproof), eating at odd times, and/or darting through labyrinths or out side doors to scarf down food outside of the venue area (very common). Middle-of-nowhere venues often require excellent planning, twenty-minute drives by food runners, or good inter-team cooperation. Sometimes food/hydration just involves asking authorities nicely, and occasionally it even unfortunately reaches the paramedics (especially a problem for hydration). As with eveything it usually involves teamwork and should have contingency plans--this will become unremarkably automatic for your team over time.

I'm not saying FIRST's system is at all perfect, but we can't abdicate responsibly just because there's something to complain about. FIRST is part of real life, particularly when you're dealing with real students' health. We can help FIRST improve the system, but we can't just blame them and wait.

[Chris is me]

On the tangent of lunch during FRC, it's basically impossible to fit it in if you're in the pits. One novel solution that my buddy / Shaker's drive coach Max uses is that Soylent meal replacement drink. He just brings a 12 pack of that stuff to every competition he goes to, and each time he needs a meal, he chugs one. Takes like five seconds to drink and you're back to work, and it's probably of better nutritional value than whatever greasy venue food you'd have to wait in line for 20 minutes to eat anyway. I'm not generally a fan of Soylent but this seems like a really nice application for the product and I'll be investing in a case of the stuff for next season.

[plnyyanks]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

On the tangent of lunch during FRC, it's basically impossible to fit it in if you're in the pits. One novel solution that my buddy / Shaker's drive coach Max uses is that Soylent meal replacement drink. He just brings a 12 pack of that stuff to every competition he goes to, and each time he needs a meal, he chugs one. Takes like five seconds to drink and you're back to work, and it's probably of better nutritional value than whatever greasy venue food you'd have to wait in line for 20 minutes to eat anyway. I'm not generally a fan of Soylent but this seems like a really nice application for the product and I'll be investing in a case of the stuff for next season.

In the fall, I had some unfortunately timed classes that went right through lunchtime, so I gave Soylent (v1.5) a try on the recommendation from a professor of mine whose diet is ~60% Soylent. It's pretty amazing - it basically tastes like pancake batter and then you're no longer hungry. I stopped once those classes ended because I prefer regular food, but it's a pretty cool product. It hadn't occurred to me to use it for FRC, but I think it's an awesome application, especially for those who wouldn't eat otherwise.

[jweston]

Originally Posted by jijiglobe

My experience as president was hugely stressful, and left me in a position where I had to stop and ask myself if it was all worth it. I have to admit that this year, during build season, I wasn't really in a good place emotionally; there were just too many things to worry about, on top of my classwork. On top of all that, my team made it to Einstein this year, which left me with mixed feelings. On the one hand, I'm happy that my team was successful, and that my hard work payed off. On the other hand, I'm worried about the implications of this success. Is it necessary for our leaders to push themselves this hard for our team to be successful?

Upon further reflection, I wanted to address the work-life balance you're talking about. This of course is not FIRST's responsibility. It is something that everyone needs to work out for themselves. A team's culture and your role within the team will have a lot to do with how much pressure you face from FRC.

Beyond that, it's been my experience that working in STEM fields can get super competitive, particularly in an educational setting. There is a lot of ego tied up with how quickly, how devotedly, and how thoroughly one groks <insert favorite STEM subject here>. IMO this attitude can be quite discouraging to certain personality types, even though it may provide drive to other personality types. Some of the worst tolls it can take are:
* poor work-life balance
* unhealthily unrealistic achievement expectations
* insulation from peers driven by professional jealousy
* valuing outcomes over process

Thankfully FIRST seems to be less prone to this but it is not immune. You see it when students, mentors, and volunteers sacrifice basic needs and relationships to keep a team or an event going. You see it in unfounded accusations of cheating towards high achieving teams. You see it when teams are more interested in banners than in their students becoming passionate and healthy people.

The C in FRC is for competion. Sometimes we lose track of why we're competing. It's not supposed to be about ego. Competition is supposed to be a carrot to drive learning and practicing skills. No one should have to put a whole team's season on their back. And, should you find yourself there, there is no shame in setting reasonable boundaries, even if it means lowering the team's expectations. There will be disappointment but dealing with disappointment is also part of life.

Originally Posted by jijiglobe

Also... Airplanes aside, some people were throwing legitimately dangerous things onto Einstein (someone threw a large paper shuriken made out of several sheets of paper that narrowly missed someone in our pit crew. From the height it was thrown, it could have easily hurt someone really badly). Can FIRST please do something about the paper airplane situation?

The venue at Worlds is so big I think teams need to self enforce this. I find it very rude when people are throwing things, especially during or between matches or when someone is at the podium. Much worse if it's something that could actually hurt someone (did we leave safety in the pit?)

Maybe it would help if FIRST had an area set up dedicated to people to flying paper airplanes. Maybe a contest for who can fly furthest?

[Sperkowsky]

I should mention that the op's team goes to an extremely high pressure elite high school in NYC. The work load there is probably 4-5 times or more the work load anyone is used to.

That said I wonder why he does have so much responsibility. Their team is gigantic. Perhaps the issue isn't frc being too strenuous but rather that there needs to be better delegation of responsibilities.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by jweston

Upon further reflection, I wanted to address the work-life balance you're talking about. This of course is not FIRST's responsibility. It is something that everyone needs to work out for themselves. A team's culture and your role within the team will have a lot to do with how much pressure you face from FRC.

To an extent I disagree:
FIRST certainly does things that can drive consequences to teams and that are well within their control, in fact, in some cases only FIRST can control these things:

The 6 week build season.
The times at events.
The way events operate.
Bag & Tag.

All of these things are directly the responsibility of FIRST and only FIRST.
That said a person can make this much worse for themselves easily.

As someone that has routinely watched interest in FRC evaporate over the expectations it brings along: I don't worry too much that FIRST seems dead-set on maintaining the status quo. Like any situation these decisions cause a trade off with these choices they drive and that creates limits. FRC will be bound by these limits and it's not for me to judge if that's good or bad. FRC still drives value as it is.

The issue, I think, is that as teams try to break the limits of what FRC is, there is an exponential curve and the closer to straight up at the end you get, the more unrealistic the restrictions on FRC become except in a very specific set of circumstances. There are definitely aspects of FRC, in particular among the FIRST competitions, that favor a strong year round educational setting beyond simply FRC itself. If one tries to cram that education into just the FRC package it will become unworkable at some point without an increasingly unlikely set of circumstances existing. Therefore I have found that sometimes teams are more successful if they concentrate less on more education within the FRC construct and more on the design of their robot even if they resort to largely hand tools.

In the end, where we agree, is that you need to do what is right for you:
If FRC is causing you pain then it's time to re-evaluate whether you can align to the limits of FRC.
If one can't - don't expect FRC to adapt you - over 20 years I've discovered that FRC, when confronted with problems, has gotten just big enough that it can take far more than voting and even evidence to get alteration in direction.
To some extent this inertia is logical: FRC wants to grow and thrive but it can't do that if it breaks with the status quo too much, or else FIRST will make the mixture for success hard to determine even for the veteran teams.

Written by me, speaking for me, as someone with 20+ years of experience with FRC in particular, getting close to 10 years of experience with FLL and 2 years of FTC. Keep FRC11/FRC193 out of this <- it is not wrong to talk about the limits of a system even a system called FIRST.

[jweston]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

To an extent I disagree:
FIRST certainly does things that can drive consequences to teams and that are well within their control, in fact, in some cases only FIRST can control these things:

The 6 week build season.
The times at events.
The way events operate.
Bag & Tag.

This is true. However, I believe that the time limits and access to robots is meant to keep a lid on the ever-escalating desire for teams to pour even more time and resources into FRC. Whether or not you or I believe FIRST's limits are having the desired effect is another story.

As you noted, FIRST does not, and in some cases cannot, limit other inequities such as access to facilities, tools, experienced mentors, or a school system with a strong STEM program. Teams that have less access often find themselves trying to make the difference up in effort. As it is, there are teams that find legal loopholes in the time limits and still end up meeting 20+ hours a week through competition season. And it works. If you lack the theoretical knowledge to design a mechanism, you can usually figure it out through a lot of trial and error. If you don't have sophicated tools to rapidly fabricate high precision parts, you can use cruder tools much more slowly, probably taking multiple attempts.

We all know the teams who win banners year after year after year. I don't expect it's because they are inherently brighter or that they work harder than everyone else. It's more likely these are teams who are blessed to have some kind of knowledge-based, service, and/or material advantage. And I don't blame them at all. But this imbalance ends up putting tremendous pressure on the teams who are competing with them. In order to even have a chance at some kind of recognition, they have to throw everything they've got and then some into build and competition. Even then, they still may not get it.

I can see how diffiicult it must be for FIRST balance a level playing field versus allowing teams to use their unique circumstance to reach their potential. Someone much smarter than me will have to figure out how to solve inequity.

All I meant by one's work-life balance not being FIRST's responsibility is that work-life balance should be taken in a greater context than FIRST. For all things in life, we evaulate the effort, prioritize its meaning to us, and make choices. How you choose to value FRC, how much effort you choose to give it, and how that impacts your time and energy elsewhere is strictly up to you.

[Lij2015]

As someone who threw their life at a team my Junior and Senior years of high school (my 2nd and 3rd years respectively on the team) I can attest that it was a lot of time and a lot of commitment. But I loved every moment of it!

Would I have had more time to study and do homework had I not been on an FRC team that pulled 9 hours in weekdays and a 9 hour Saturday during build season? Absolutely yes, but knowing how I feel about school and always have felt about it I almost would've certainly just used that time to play video games and hangout with friends and put the same amount of work in.

[IronicDeadBird]

Anybody else generally gain weight during build season?

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

Anybody else generally gain weight during build season?

You know in college I took a class called: "Stress management through exercise"

I have often thought it might be wise to engage in exercise at least once a day as part of FIRST activities.
If one can justify pushing this hard, why not accept that this body and mind are linked.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/exerc...s-scott-lister

Years ago I walked with a cane because I hurt myself moving a very large printer.
I never got proper physical therapy because my employer ran interference.
It took 1 week before I could walk.
1 year before I wasn't periodically in a bad pain.
2 years before I only really dealt with pain in the morning and when lifting things badly.
3 years before random lifting couldn't cause spasms.
5 years later sometimes I had to walk hunched over in the morning.

Finally this year I got physical therapy at my expense and with some simple targeted exercises I am much better.
It's worth it to spend that few minutes even if you don't have chronic pain.

I think of weight gain as your body's way of planning for extremely unstable situations: missed meals, lower quality food, broken sleep patterns, longs periods of unusual activity.
Considering I weigh 300lbs at 6'3" and have weighed at least 240lbs since I was 14 and I've been working since I was 10: that should probably say something about doing crazy things, sitting around doing them and body weight.

[trezelle2]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Almost everything about the original post strikes me as either something that can be handled by the individual, or is part of the specific team culture.... I also think that keeping the students from running out of fuel should be one of the mentors' responsibilities.

I'd like to add also that this is a great opportunity for alumni of your team, depending on your team culture. Personally, I helped found my team as a senior ('14-'15 school year - Recycle Rush), and, due to our small team, was chosen as both Drive Coach & Team Captain. That put a lot of stress and pressure on me, and I too went without lunch one day, didn't sleep well, etc - not because of lack of support, but because as a rookie team we didn't know what we were getting into in a lot of ways.
This year, I attended college 3 hours away from my high school, but decided to long-distance mentor my team, and that I felt extremely passionate about making sure that students didn't get burned out & had realistic jobs. My main projects during the year were:

• Fall: Define the roles on the team and run them by the other mentors
• December: Present these roles to the team
• Kickoff: Right after Kickoff, I interviewed the students and conferred with mentors to assign roles
• Competition: Support the team leaders

To elaborate, our team was small and we all agreed to have mentors appoint team leads in different areas.
During competitions, as a new mentor, I told our lead mentor that I planned to work closely with the drive team, and that paid off. I walked with them to queue to keep nerves down, especially when our robot had problems. With our very small team, our Drive Coach was also one of our strongest members in the pit, and could have burned himself out; at one point, I pulled our pit mentors aside, and we basically banned the drive team from the pit for around 45 minutes so I could bring them to lunch and not let them rush through or go hungry. We also had to tell the team captain to leave the pit for a little while, because she hadn't let herself take a break either. We had to be more careful with rotating our pit crew, even with only 7 team members.

Parents were also great, arranging dinner plans one day when we mentors were nearly burned out as well, which was really helpful.


I think that in many ways, FIRST attracts perfectionists and those who are likely to develop such laser focus and determination bordering on stubbornness that they forego such things as food and sleep. **(This applies both to students & mentors) Once our team recognized that, we could start taking steps to prevent hunger, tiredness, and burnout.

TL;DR: A college or alum mentor is a great team-wrangler. Watch for perfectionists that may set themselves up for burnout.


**Note: I say this lovingly, and am in no way trying to place blame on the participants. It's something I've learned about myself from experience, and I notice it in members of my own team.