[FRC Blog] The Woodie Flowers Award and Two FRC Championships

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Gregor

While I hate half champs almost as much as you do, and I think I agree with you on this, the arguments you've made for the WFA could be applied to Chairman's, the robotics competition, or half champs as a whole.

I think I could see how my point could be applied to half champs, so let me clarify to highlight the difference in thinking.

I believe WFFA and WFA are a essential component of every official FRC event.

I do not believe going the CMP is an essential component of every FRC team's four year cycle. But that has been already, so lets not go there.

Hope that makes sense.

[FrankJ]

Please don't take this as disparaging Woodie Flower award winners. They are all amazing. Nor even the process really. But the whole thing is sort of a meh to me. For every Woodie Flower award winner there are a plethora of mentors deserving of the award. Many on them mentor teams that the members don't know enough about the award to write an effective application. The density of Woodie Flower finalist between regionals and districts is another disparity. The award is not part of district events already. As for as I know it has nothing to do with how well the team performs either. I don't see awarding one or two annually materially effects this other than keeping the award a little more exclusive. The head scratcher is going to when to award it since there is not a final ultimate event

Once again please don't see this as whiny or too critical. It is more of an observation. All the Woodie Flowers winners or finalist that I know are great people and deserving. Woodie is one of my heroes.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

Please don't take this as disparaging Woodie Flower award winners. They are all amazing. Nor even the process really. But the whole thing is sort of a meh to me. For every Woodie Flower award winner there are a plethora of mentors deserving of the award. Many on them mentor teams that the members don't know enough about the award to write an effective application...

This is very true. We all love WFA, but I wonder if what we're discussing here is the ad hoc struggle to scale the old selection system. Having it run by WFAs is great, but it imposes particular limits on the process (and I won't claim to know what they all are). Is the committee and community still convinced that the original approach is strongest, or are we facing practical limitations of the system? For instance, if we wanted to add a DWFFA or send more DChamps WFFAs, is the debate philosophical or also practical in being able to vet enough nominations quickly enough? We tweak little aspects of the Chairman's process every few years. Is it time to open similar discussions with the WFA committee?

[Paul Copioli]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Question:

Which is more important?

1. Keeping the WFFA and WFA awards "exclusive" and "singular" in nature

OR

2. Recognizing and celebrating one accomplished mentor at every FRC event

I'll throw my hat in the ring that option #2 is FAR more important.

This decision, and the decision to only give out WFFA's at the DCMP level, gives me the impression that the WFAs are holding on to a failing architecture that cannot adequately recognize deserving mentors. I really dislike split champs, but I dislike split champs without a WFA even more.

The "prestige" of the award does not merit excluding many events from celebrating a deserving mentor.

-Mike

Mike,
You and I are usually aligned in our beliefs about all things FRC, but you and I could not be further apart on this one my friend (at least based on your quoted post).

First, let me explain our rationale on the district champs WFFA. Quite the contrary to your claim about us holding on to a failing architecture we were trying to think way beyond the regional model. Our decision to celebrate 1 WFFA at the district championship was made when there was only 1 district championship (Michigan) and on the heels of a year that Michigan had 3 WFFA due to their three regional events. We were trying to set a precedent that once everyone has a district championship then each would have 1 winner that would represent their set of districts. Obviously, we hold true to this principle today. We thought (and still think) that one winner from each region makes sense if someone came into the program once we are all in districts. Now, the claim from you and others that we recognize less mentors today than before is just plain incorrect. The WFAs have set direction that at every district event the nominees at that event for the district champs are to be called down on the field and recognized. The ONLY difference between this process and awarding a winner at each district is the trophy. Otherwise, ALL of these nominated mentors get recognized. In the old Regional system only the selected winner gets recognized.

We realize that some districts do not call every nominated mentor down to the floor and we are working to set clearer direction on this as it is our strong belief that every nominated district mentor should be called down to the field to be recognized.

This means that once everyone is doing the district model every single mentor that was nominated will be recognized.

Holding on to a failing architecture? I don't think so.

Paul

[Paul Copioli]

Originally Posted by Siri

Is it time to open similar discussions with the WFA committee?

The WFA committee has discussions every year about changing / tweaking the process. We have lengthy face to face discussions each Fall where many dead horses get beaten.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

The WFA committee has discussions every year about changing / tweaking the process. We have lengthy face to face discussions each Fall where many dead horses get beaten.

Paul,
thanks for sharing. I believe I've seen some posts on social media where members have posted about such a meeting taking place.

On a tangent,
my personal wish is that the HOF CCA teams also get that chance to have some say in the process/awarding of the RCA's in such a Fall meeting also face to face.

Similar to other things pointed out, personally I believe that there are many programs worthy of the CCA, and that only allowing 1 CCA per year is not enough.
Perhaps having a division CCA finalist at Championships, where 1 of the 4 is crowned CCA, similar to that of the EI division award at Champs would help teams that are close, be given some recognition for their hard work and efforts. The Chairman's Award is such a tough process similar to that of the Robot Competition itself, IMO.

[PayneTrain]

Paul-

Not necessarily speaking for Mike, but I think the rationale for wanting recognition of an outstanding mentor at the postseason expos plays in to how events recognize outstanding members of the key stakeholders' factions. The championship event historically awarded a Volunteer of the Year Award, a Woodie Flowers Award, a Chairman's Award, and a Founder's Award. Volunteers, Mentors, Teams, and Sponsors make FIRST what it is and the annual championship event provided not only recognition of the outstanding members of the community, but reminded everyone to recognize the outstanding people directly affecting them that make their FIRST experience possible.

Could there be any consideration to recognize the year's WFFA winners at their respective postseason events as a substitute for awarding two WFAs?

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Could there be any consideration to recognize the year's WFFA winners at their respective postseason events as a substitute for awarding two WFAs?

This seems like a decent way to bring in the "mentor celebration" aspect of the event, without a WFA award at both late-April-FRC-mini-world-split-champs.

Paul,

Thanks a ton for the explanation. I agree, recognizing WFFA nominees at each district event is a great thing. I hope the practice can be standardized further for the 2017 season.

When I said "holding onto a failing architecture", I meant failing in my terms of success for the future of the WFFA and WFA. Obviously, we have different thoughts on a successful outcome for these awards moving forward. Ultimately, I think the group of individuals evaluating WFFA winners will need to grow beyond its current limits (apparently, the individuals that choose winners are past WFA's, and Woodie, and maybe Dean? Please correct me on this), in order to properly recognize the growing population of mentors involved in FRC.

Here's what I see looking forward:

Assuming the number of districts will increase, and the number of teams will increase, it seems that the US will eventually be broken up into 20-25 districts, with maybe 3000 domestic teams (just guesses here). If one WFFA is given out at each DCMP, this results 1 WFFA winner per 120-150 teams, on average.

This ratio is even greater in a district like Michigan, where one WFFA was awarded out of 400 teams in 2016. However, a total of 9 Dean's List Finalists Awards were given at the same event in 2016. Makes me wonder why the Dean's List Finalist Award is able to scale appropriately, where as the WFFA does not scale similarly. It seems odd to me.

I'd suggest considering awarding multiple WFFA's at the district level, perhaps at some ratio to the size of the district, similar to how it appears the Dean's List Finalist Award is handled. I'm sure I'm not the first person to recommend this, so I'd like to know if this option is a no-go for the WFA's.

Thanks,

-Mike

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Now, the claim from you and others that we recognize less mentors today than before is just plain incorrect. The WFAs have set direction that at every district event the nominees at that event for the district champs are to be called down on the field and recognized.

For what it's worth, this isn't what has happened at both NE events I went to. Names are shown on the screen and people are asked to stand for applause, and then the ceremony continues. No one is called on by name or called to the stage. If it's the WFA committee's intent that ceremonies at district events are more substantial than this, that's not what's happening. It just feels like a passing announcement thing and certainly not even close to the recognition a regional WFFA would get. The District Championship WFFA award feels exactly like a regional WFFA award; these two things together make it really feel like there is less recognition of mentors in districts and not more. Maybe if ceremonies are tweaked so WFFA nominees are brought to the floor and called by name at districts, the feeling of recognition will be spread around more.

I know lots of thought has been put into the WFA process and it's hard to criticize it from the outside, but I just wanted to point this out.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

For what it's worth, this isn't what has happened at both NE events I went to. Names are shown on the screen and people are asked to stand for applause, and then the ceremony continues. No one is called on by name or called to the stage.

Sometimes not even this has happened historically--no standing or no slide at all--at least not at a major ceremony. Not pointing fingers and it's possible it does occur at a less visible break, but overall I wouldn't say there's much recognition in the ways I've seen on average.

[TDav540]

Originally Posted by Siri

Sometimes not even this has happened historically--no standing or no slide at all--at least not at a major ceremony. Not pointing fingers and it's possible it does occur at a less visible break, but overall I wouldn't say there's much recognition in the ways I've seen on average.

At the three GA Districts that I attended this year (Columbus, Albany, and KSU), only one (KSU) showed a slide of the finalists for the Peachtree WFFA. I do not know if this was ALL the mentors who applied, or just the mentors which remained after the district level.

I agree with the idea of ensuring that, at every event, each nominated mentor is, at a minimum, asked to stand as their name is called.

[Jon Stratis]

Here in MN, we have a "mentor parade" immediately prior to the WFFA. The mentors all group according to years of service, and walk in a parade across the field, wrapping around it at the end. Then previous WFFA's are called back to the field, the new WFFA is announced, and he/she comes out to shake hands and receive the award. Something like this could easily be adopted to the district format, having all of the nominees walk out separately for a round of applause.

[IKE]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

The WFA committee has discussions every year about changing / tweaking the process. We have lengthy face to face discussions each Fall where many dead horses get beaten.

This statement reminded me of these alternatives to beating dead horses:

12 Alternatives to Beating a Dead Horse

Does CD count as a volunteer committee? (see #4).

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Here in MN, we have a "mentor parade" immediately prior to the WFFA. The mentors all group according to years of service, and walk in a parade across the field, wrapping around it at the end. Then previous WFFA's are called back to the field, the new WFFA is announced, and he/she comes out to shake hands and receive the award. Something like this could easily be adopted to the district format, having all of the nominees walk out separately for a round of applause.

This has happened at MAR DChamps (and I want to say it happened at a pre-District regional), but not district events. It's really driven down visibility and overall--apparently across several districts if not more. There seems to be a common method across the mentioned districts though: does anyone know where this may have come from and how? We now understand it's not through the WFA committee, but where's the disconnect? It's certainly understandable that the districts would want a to shorten the ceremony or discuss other concerns, but whatever it is apparently didn't reach the committee.

Another note in terms of the WFFA slide - there are at least a few cases in which nominees have not been on the slide. I don't know where the slides come from, and sometimes the MC will find out and correct it verbally. I'm not sure it's always caught though, or at least not immediately. There was a scattered misunderstanding that district events have their own selection tier based on the missing names.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Here in MN, we have a "mentor parade" immediately prior to the WFFA. The mentors all group according to years of service, and walk in a parade across the field, wrapping around it at the end. Then previous WFFA's are called back to the field, the new WFFA is announced, and he/she comes out to shake hands and receive the award. Something like this could easily be adopted to the district format, having all of the nominees walk out separately for a round of applause.

SoCal, too. Though we add the previous WFFA winners passing the mic around and giving name, year, event, and team somewhere in the middle.