[FRC Blog] Radio Silence

[tjf]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

I don't think I ever saw one take more than 60 seconds. 45-50 seconds was more typical. The rest of the delay some people are noticing is from the Driver Station sometimes taking upwards of 20 seconds to establish communication once the network connection is there. That appears to be a Windows networking thing.


It's my understanding that the bulk of the OM5-AP bootup time is in loading and initializing the built-in web server interface to the device settings. If that were removed from the firmware package, it could probably boot in less than 30 seconds. It would also take away a lot of flexibility for teams to tweak their network setup.

Given a couple of years with the same radio, I expect that the bootup time could be drastically slashed while providing teams with the appropriate tools to configure the device. That's probably not going to happen this year, though.

I hadn't taken that into account, mine was from when the robot stops moving to when the DS can move it successfully. Just for the sake of clarity, my total seems a bit larger, though roughly similar to the numbers you've seen. I wasn't exactly counting, it was during me watching a match I saw it happen and got my numbers, so take it with a grain of salt.

Though this is just my two cents, but if the device prioritized services (DHCP & Routing) above the webGUI, it'd help boot times, though this might be totally contrary to the way OpenMesh has the device configured.

[Bkeeneykid]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

I don't think I ever saw one take more than 60 seconds. 45-50 seconds was more typical. The rest of the delay some people are noticing is from the Driver Station sometimes taking upwards of 20 seconds to establish communication once the network connection is there. That appears to be a Windows networking thing.


It's my understanding that the bulk of the OM5-AP bootup time is in loading and initializing the built-in web server interface to the device settings. If that were removed from the firmware package, it could probably boot in less than 30 seconds. It would also take away a lot of flexibility for teams to tweak their network setup.

Given a couple of years with the same radio, I expect that the bootup time could be drastically slashed while providing teams with the appropriate tools to configure the device. That's probably not going to happen this year, though.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the competition image use different firmware than the home use version? In that case, why don't you include the web UI on the home versions, but not a competition ready version? I don't believe you're legally allowed to change the competition firmware. I also don't believe anyone's complaining about the speed at home.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the competition image use different firmware than the home use version? In that case, why don't you include the web UI on the home versions, but not a competition ready version? I don't believe you're legally allowed to change the competition firmware. I also don't believe anyone's complaining about the speed at home.

I don't know if FIRST has actually told us if the firmwares are different. I would hope they would be the same, in the interest of letting us test at home in as close to a competition manor as possible. The real difference is in the security settings, which within a given firmware could easily be turned on or off to allow secure connection to the field or unsecured connection at home. That's how it worked on the old radios.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Can we please pick a radio with a physical Reset button... if you can't connect to the router because the firmware is messed up, you can't reset it to factory settings either, and that's kind of a terrible catch-22 to be stuck in!

Believe it or not, it is actually possible to do that. I don't know HOW a bunch got messed up, or HOW they got set back to working by way of factory settings... but I do know THAT that did happen!

But yes, that minute-long boot time is quite annoying. Take that away and maybe teams don't have to power in queue just to start the match on time...

[fargus111111111]

I know that we are now beating a dead horse, but maybe if we kill it again someone will listen.
Seriously though, while I'm sure FIRST HQ is already looking at how to solve this problem I will ad my voice to the cry for a faster boot time. Can we go back to the old, I mean REALLY OLD radios that were literally ready in about 10 seconds. These were before WiFi and while I love the benefits that WiFi brings our t-shirt shooter is one of my favorite robots because it has that old IFI system where the robot and driver station are both ready to go in about 20 seconds tops.

We had a situation at Palmetto this year where, in the elims, we were not sure if we would make it onto the field because we had to power up our robot to reset it and due to the long boot time we struggled to get it reset in time. We only made it out in time because the FTA had sympathy for us recognizing that our problem was something we had no control over.

If we had the space to put one I would swap our radio for one of the old D-Links because they boot so much quicker and a fast boot time is so important when you are struggling to make a match in time, but it is also important when you have a bunch of small children who want to see the robot run, but you are losing their attention because the darn thing is taking what seems like 3 years to boot up.

I think now the horse is sufficiently beat.

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by fargus111111111

If we had the space to put one I would swap our radio for one of the old D-Links because they boot so much quicker and a fast boot time is so important when you are struggling to make a match in time, but it is also important when you have a bunch of small children who want to see the robot run, but you are losing their attention because the darn thing is taking what seems like 3 years to boot up.

I think now the horse is sufficiently beat.

I agree fully. The old routers were better than the current model in virtually every way. Sure, the size reduction was nice, but it would be so much better to go back to the old routers (or a similar model) with the features we need (fast bootup, physical reset button, 3+ ports) instead of the features we want (smaller footprint, blinkier lights).

[Thad House]

Originally Posted by evanperryg

I agree fully. The old routers were better than the current model in virtually every way. Sure, the size reduction was nice, but it would be so much better to go back to the old routers (or a similar model) with the features we need (fast bootup, physical reset button, 3+ ports) instead of the features we want (smaller footprint, blinkier lights).

While a do like the old radio for things like being at home, on the field I would take the new radio hands down over the old one. I saw multiple times where multiple teams were using 5+ Mbps of bandwidth, and the field had no problems. The dlinks went into death mode in a situation like this, and it was not a solvable problem. Once these radios were connected, barring a power issues their connection to the field was miles above the old ones and I would never want to go back.

[protoserge]

The OpenMesh radios fixed many connections issues on the field. I hope the FRC-specific firmware can pass the FCC regulations. The radios are part of the reason there are no more "x-mas trees" with FMS. They also actually perform QoS versus the D-links and can enforce bandwidth caps.

If your robot repeatedly reset on the field, it may have been the power connection to the radio or a brownout condition. I watched several teams drop after an impact of some sort. A more resilient connector would be great.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by evanperryg

I agree fully. The old routers were better than the current model in virtually every way. Sure, the size reduction was nice, but it would be so much better to go back to the old routers (or a similar model) with the features we need (fast bootup, physical reset button, 3+ ports) instead of the features we want (smaller footprint, blinkier lights).

I believe fargus was actually referring to the radio-modems we used to use way back when. They were made first by Motorola and then by IFI. They used hobby radio frequencies. While they would "boot" faster than you could walk off the field they also had numerous operational issues that people tend to forget, Including being susceptible to outside interference and having groups of frequencies that could not be used together.

[scca229]

Originally Posted by protoserge

The OpenMesh radios fixed many connections issues on the field. I hope the FRC-specific firmware can pass the FCC regulations. The radios are part of the reason there are no more "x-mas trees" with FMS. They also actually perform QoS versus the D-links and can enforce bandwidth caps.

If your robot repeatedly reset on the field, it may have been the power connection to the radio or a brownout condition. I watched several teams drop after an impact of some sort. A more resilient connector would be great.

In the 4 events I FTA'd, I can't remember one instance where the power problem was the connector at the radio. Every instance that I quickly troubleshot at the end of a match was at either the VRM or the PDB if it was only the radio that cycled and not the whole robot. All I had to do was touch the wires at those points and the radio would cycle. Wiedmuller connections still seem to be a difficulty for many teams to master as many of the problems were too much/little stripped or whiskers shorting between contacts.

However, most robot power problems I witnessed were with 6 gauge wire connections at the Battery, Breaker, and/or PDB being loose and those didn't change from last year. If those are not tight (zero wiggling allowed), you will lose connection with impact or just acceleration.

Even though I could have done without the long bootup, I loved the connectivity vs the D-Link. I went from previously having to tell teams to reduce camera resolution/framerate to keep matches clean for everyone on the field to suggesting they ought to for their own happiness since they were only hurting themselves. I had one team in their first match have issues when they had Qty 3, simultaneous 640x480/30fps camera feeds going, and no other teams in that match were affected. It was very nice looking at the log on the FMS for that match with beautiful numbers for everyone else.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the competition image use different firmware than the home use version?

You asked for it: You're wrong.

There's a persistent belief by some people that there was a competition-specific version of the firmware. I think that's based on a misunderstanding of just what it means for the OM5P's power light to be on and steady. When powering it up, the power light comes on and stays on just long enough to trick people into thinking it's ready to be reconfigured at the kiosk, but then it goes off again as the boot process continues. If you click the button on the kiosk too soon, the program fails to find the radio and suggests reloading the firmware.

[timytamy]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Can we please pick a radio with a physical Reset button...

Please this. I've set up the DLinks for multiple robots, teams and events more times then I'd care to count. Aside from an event with official FMS etc, it's almost always been easier for me to manually them up. ie reset, set IP, set DHCP, etc. than to find a computer that both has the utility on it, and has NICs that are able to run with it.

The OM5Ps are and don't work terribly but being forced to use the utility is not helpful.

[Bryan Herbst]

Originally Posted by fargus111111111

Can we go back to the old, I mean REALLY OLD radios that were literally ready in about 10 seconds. These were before WiFi and while I love the benefits that WiFi brings our t-shirt shooter is one of my favorite robots because it has that old IFI system where the robot and driver station are both ready to go in about 20 seconds tops.

Sure, but you will also remove the possibility of teams having camera feeds back to their driver station, and you will likely have to cut out a lot of the other diagnostics as well, because the bandwidth on those things is pretty low.

You also have to start dealing with the limited range and the connection dropping when certain objects come between your DS and your robot again.

As for the DLinks from previous seasons- one of the major reasons they were dropped was that they were the biggest culprit in the "christmas trees" that we saw in the past. This is when all robots on the field would start moving jerkily or dropping out completely. The DLinks didn't quite conform to the WiFi standards, in a way that almost guaranteed christmas trees in poor connectivity situations.

Picking a radio for FRC is not an easy task, and it is often a game of tradeoffs. Knowing the team at FRC working on it, I think they understand the tradeoffs and requirements very well and will make a good choice.

[Philip Arola]

Weren't they already discontinued by the manufacturer? I understand this is a kick to those who bought them for spares, but they were having to look into the new -AC variant anyway, right?

Also this x1000

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

Please don't pick another radio that has a 90 second reset time... watching robots die on the field this year was especially frustrating (and common) because you knew it would be for a large majority of the match.

[Tom Line]

The boot times have never bothered me. However I'd love to see a new radio use power over ethernet. Eliminate the barrel connectors that come loose.