Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017

[nuclearnerd]

I would also like to know if Ontario is also moving to 2 day events (with unbag time), or will they remain 3 day events?

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by nuclearnerd

I would also like to know if Ontario is also moving to 2 day events (with unbag time), or will they remain 3 day events?

I would presume 2 day events, like every other district.

[Brian Maher]

Originally Posted by nuclearnerd

I would also like to know if Ontario is also moving to 2 day events (with unbag time), or will they remain 3 day events?

District events are two day events. It's part of what keeps district event costs low. The larger District Championships, which would almost certainly include the 60 team ONCMP, are three day events.

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by nuclearnerd

I would also like to know if Ontario is also moving to 2 day events (with unbag time), or will they remain 3 day events?

Originally Posted by Christopher149

I would presume 2 day events, like every other district.

Originally Posted by BMSOTM

District events are two day events. It's part of what keeps district event costs low. The larger District Championships, which would almost certainly include the 60 team ONCMP, are three day events.

Just to be clear to those unfamiliar with districts, while most of us do call District Events "2-day events", there's almost always a third load-in and set-up day beforehand where you can unbag, work on, and practice with your robot (at least in MAR). For the Mt. Olive MAR District Event for example, which many call a "Saturday-Sunday event", pits open at 4pm on the Friday before, with the inspection station opening at 5:30pm and practice matches running from 6pm to 9pm.

As Brian mentioned, some (see stipulations in posts below) District Championships run similar to a normal 3-day regional with a full practice day, depending on the district. Here's the 2016 MAR DCMP schedule. Note that yes, we did begin Qualification Matches on Thursday of District Champs. That was...interesting.

[mman1506]

Originally Posted by Hallry

Just to be clear to those unfamiliar with districts, while most of us do call District Events "2-day events", there's almost always a third load-in and set-up day beforehand where you can unbag, work on, and practice with your robot. For the Mt. Olive MAR District Event for example, which many call a "Saturday-Sunday event", pits open at 4pm on the Friday before, with the inspection station opening at 5:30pm and practice matches running from 6pm to 9pm.

As Brian mentioned, District Championships run almost exactly like a normal 3-day regional with a full practice day.

Do you still get unbag time before attending district champs?

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by mman1506

Do you still get unbag time before attending district champs?

No, the 6-hours of unbag time is only for District Events, not District Championships.

EDIT:The 6-hours of unbag time is only valid for 2-day events. As Wil pointed out below, there are some 2-day DCMPs, meaning that qualified teams do receive 6-hours of unbag time beforehand. So, it depends on what district system you are in. TIL.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Hallry

As Brian mentioned, District Championships run almost exactly like a normal 3-day regional with a full practice day.

3-Day DCMPs are a hybrid of district events and regional events where you have a tools-on Day Zero for inspections and Day One has a full slate of practice matches until lunch, then it rolls in to qualification rounds.

3-Day DCMPs, however, are not allotted bag time since it is a three day event (even though Day 1 has quals... still haven't figured that one out yet).

2-Day DCMPs for the smaller single-state district systems do have bag time, as they are pretty much a district event invitational in terms of size and execution. PCH might have had to deal with some special rules w/r/t venue requests but I think it's all the same.

I expect Ontario to operate with a 3-Day DCMP with around ~60 invited teams.

[Brian Maher]

Originally Posted by Hallry

No, the 6-hours of unbag time is only for District Events, not District Championships.

The unbag time is allowed before two day events to make up for the lack of time to work on the robot at a practice day. This is why there is no unbag time before a three-day District Championship, which has a practice day.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by nuclearnerd

I would also like to know if Ontario is also moving to 2 day events (with unbag time), or will they remain 3 day events?

From the "FAQ Regarding the Ontario FIRST Robotics Competition District Transition"

The District events will be 2 competition days instead of 3 days for regional events. District events will not have a day dedicated for practice. Additionally, some of the events will run Friday and Saturday and some on Saturday and Sunday. We believe having a mix of these dates will give teams flexibility in optimizing days away from school and/or work. The District Championship at the Hershey Centre in Mississauga will be a 3 day event following the same format as a Regional event.

[cad321]

How does the 30lb out of bag limit work with the 2 day events? What would stop a team from making, say a 35lb mechanism that they attatched during their 6 hours of open bag time prior to the event, and then resealing the bag and going to competition? Is this an honours system where competitors aren't to add more than 30lbs, or perhaps another advantage to the district model?

[Knufire]

Originally Posted by cad321

How does the 30lb out of bag limit work with the 2 day events? What would stop a team from making, say a 35lb mechanism that they attatched during their 6 hours of open bag time prior to the event, and then resealing the bag and going to competition? Is this an honours system where competitors aren't to add more than 30lbs, or perhaps another advantage to the district model?

R18 defines this very clearly. In terms of enforcement, it is the honor system. Note the last line in the second paragraph of the rule, if you fabricate something during the six hours, it does not count towards your withholding allowance. That combined with some other tricks (such as removing motors from assemblies to return them to their COTS state and putting them back on at the competition) means that you can rebuild a pretty significant amount of your robot between events.

[Kleiman]

Originally Posted by Karthik

All prices are below are in Canadian Dollars based off today's USD-CAD exchange rate of 1.28.



For a team who currently goes to two events, there's an instant savings of over $4000.00 CAD. That savings increases further if you compare the cost of attending 3 Regionals vs 2 Districts and the discounted District Championship. Teams will be having a lot of money put right back into their pockets to start the season.

For years teams have been pushing for this transition to districts in order to take advantage of these savings. Now that FIRST Canada has made the jump it's up to the teams to give back and help make this happen.

Teams previously attending one nearby regional will now need to attend two district events just to qualify for regionals. With TDSB covering the cost of registration for one event in previous years, this means that teams who used to pay $0 to register will now pay $2500 just to participate. Add to this the extra time, planning and cost involved in having to attend at least one out of city two day event. If we qualify for regionals that's another $1500 of non-TDSB reimbursed funds and another out of town 3 day event. Now let's imagine qualifying for St. Louis.

This new system is essentially squeezing out small, but currently sustainable teams in favor of big budget, mentor heavy teams that already have robust programs. The only advantage I can see here is more rounds of play for better value. The trade off is taking away the entire FIRST experience from smaller scale teams. We were alliance captains and semi-finalists this year. Next year, I am nearly certain that our team must fold. This is deeply disappointing.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

Teams previously attending one nearby regional will now need to attend two district events just to qualify for regionals. With TDSB covering the cost of registration for one event in previous years, this means that teams who used to pay $0 to register will now pay $2500 just to participate. Add to this the extra time, planning and cost involved in having to attend at least one out of city two day event. If we qualify for regionals that's another $1500 of non-TDSB reimbursed funds and another out of town 3 day event. Now let's imagine qualifying for St. Louis.

This new system is essentially squeezing out small, but currently sustainable teams in favor of big budget, mentor heavy teams that already have robust programs. The only advantage I can see here is more rounds of play for better value. The trade off is taking away the entire FIRST experience from smaller scale teams. We were alliance captains and semi-finalists this year. Next year, I am nearly certain that our team must fold. This is deeply disappointing.

Can you breakdown your numbers? I'm not following.

[nuclearnerd]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

Teams previously attending one nearby regional will now need to attend two district events just to qualify for regionals. With TDSB covering the cost of registration for one event in previous years, this means that teams who used to pay $0 to register will now pay $2500 just to participate. Add to this the extra time, planning and cost involved in having to attend at least one out of city two day event. If we qualify for regionals that's another $1500 of non-TDSB reimbursed funds and another out of town 3 day event.

OK, I'm not following these numbers either. We're not in the TDSB, but if they paid the full cost of your first regional last year, they would have given FIRST 6500 CAD to cover the 5000 USD registration. That is still less than the 7500 new fee, but it's not as drastic as you suggested. I would be shocked if the TDSB didn't amend its donations for 2017, if their goal is to make it painless for teams to participate.

As for the cost of third event (district champs / worlds) - your own chart shows it's cheaper than a second or third event under the old system, it's entirely optional, and at minimum you're getting more competition time for the same money. What's not to like?

The only scenario where the price is higher in the new system would be if you only wanted to go to one event, and then go to worlds. That's a very lucky thing to plan for. In the new system you've got a very good chance of attending three events for the same price as the above scenario, including a very nice culminating event in a venue that's much cheaper to travel to.

[GreyingJay]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

This new system is essentially squeezing out small, but currently sustainable teams in favor of big budget, mentor heavy teams that already have robust programs. The only advantage I can see here is more rounds of play for better value. The trade off is taking away the entire FIRST experience from smaller scale teams. We were alliance captains and semi-finalists this year. Next year, I am nearly certain that our team must fold. This is deeply disappointing.

On the other hand, teams Toronto have been extremely fortunate to have such an arrangement with TDSB. I have really enjoyed meeting with all of the Toronto area teams and I hope that one day Ottawa will have just as many up and coming young teams. But out here we get no funding assistance from our school boards and without the momentum of having FIRST already established in the region, many FRC teams in Ottawa struggle to find sponsors too. You could count the number of active Ottawa area FRC teams on one hand, and for each of those, I can name you another team that used to run but either had to fold or switched to VEX.

Teams that formerly had to scrape together $5000USD just to go to one regional may have to work a little bit harder to get to $7500 Cdn but for that money will be able to attend two events. More value for the money and I would argue a better educational experience than just going to one competition, as you get to do the cycle of compete-iterate-improve.

And while the current and new district events are still all GTA centered, I am hoping that eventually there may be enough growth out this way that a district event in Ottawa or Kingston might be considered.