North Championship vs South Championship

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Up until 2002, basically everyone did go to Nationals (what we know now as Championship). For anyone interested in some decade+ old opinions on this change, this thread is worth perusing:
https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=664

If #2Champs was announced just 12 years earlier, it sounds like it would've been met with thunderous applause.

Originally Posted by Wayne C.

To say the nationals are a true championship is false because many of the teams will be there simply by being in the right year. The event is an invitational plain and simple. To compare it with the events you mention above is ludicrous.

The goal is to encompass ALL the high schools in the nation yet we restrict the big event to 300 teams. Thats the problem. 400 WOULD be better, 800 would be better still. What's the limit? Who knows. But if nobody ever looks it expand the event it will always be 300.

[Chak]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Up until 2002, basically everyone did go to Nationals (what we know now as Championship). For anyone interested in some decade+ old opinions on this change, this thread is worth perusing:
https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=664
A copy of the actual letter sent out explaining the system can be found in this post:
https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...1&postcount=17

There was another change in eligibility again a couple years later (2004), which laid out the regional qualification method still used today (minus the wild card system). Also worth reading about:
https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=22322

Thanks for the history lesson!

What I'm getting is that CD never stopped complaining, and FIRST will go ahead with their decision despite complaints.

Originally Posted by Matt Leese

The more and more I think about this announcement the more and more I dislike it. The number one problem I see with it is that it creates a group of "elites" who will always get to go to nationals (whether through the automatic perenial qualifiers or just always having a good robot). This leaves out a lot of teams. And a good number of these teams are going to feel a lot of anger and hate to these "elites." While this does already happen to an extent, it will only be extenuated by the fact that these "elites" now get special priviledges (guaranteed a spot). This will just increase the antagonism among teams. And this will be particularly profound among rookies and it will have a tendency to drive them away. Just another set of problems I see with the decision.

Matt who wishes it was purely random as that would remove any favoritism....

A prediction from 2001 became somewhat true. Yet, FRC goes on.
Maybe one of prediction for 2Champs becoming bad will turn out to be right. FRC will go on anyways, changed but not destroyed.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Up until 2002, basically everyone did go to Nationals (what we know now as Championship). For anyone interested in some decade+ old opinions on this change, this thread is worth perusing:
https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=664

You just won the necromancy award. Seriously thanks for finding and posting this. In it is the solution for the north/south dilemma. Just move the southern 1/2 champs back to Disney World. It is not about the robot anyway. Who wouldn't want to go to Disney rather than Detroit (or St Louis) in the spring? The snow is all gone, not really the rainey or tornado season. Hurricane season hasn't started up yet.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

Just move the southern 1/2 champs back to Disney World. It is not about the robot anyway. Who wouldn't want to go to Disney rather than Detroit (or St Louis) in the spring?

I like it!!! Starting in 2021, ESR in Disney World, WSR in Disney Land.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Somehow I don't think switching the Championship location of the 0 teams in Nebraska is going to make much difference.

I thought he meant we were holding Champs in Omaha!

[scottandme]

Originally Posted by Jaci

I ran some numbers on all the teams that had attended championships this year.

This is a breakdown of the combined and average OPR of teams attending the North and South championships in 2017/18, using their scores at the championship event for this year.


Here are the same numbers run on ALL teams in 2016, using their OPRs averaged over all events they attended this year.


Take these numbers how you will (OPR isn't the greatest stat ever), but I think they might hold a bit of weight.

I think you might have miscalculated - those OPR's are too high for 2016. I calculated the stats below with the 2834 database using the world rank OPR. Calculated for all teams in each region, and teams from that region attending the 2016 championship.

Region - Teams - Average OPR

FRC North 1773 23.71128032
FRC South 1357 21.27907148
CMP North 355 34.4256338
CMP South 245 31.15387755

See charts below for data from 2016. The big difference for next year will be the waitlist percentage. Does anyone have a dataset that lists how teams qualified for the 2016 championship? I would expect a bigger gap for next year, since the North will have a more competitive group from Ontario, and likely a smaller group off the waitlist. The last chart roughly represents elimination teams if each event has 4 fields of 100 teams.

[bobbysq]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Somehow I don't think switching the Championship location of the 0 teams in Nebraska is going to make much difference.

https://www.thebluealliance.com/team/5906

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by bobbysq

https://www.thebluealliance.com/team/5906

Was wondering how long this would take. I looked up 2015 numbers and saw 0 (FIRST's new website doesn't make it easy to filter by state). I later discovered there was a 2016 rookie. My bad.

[Kevin Kolodziej]

One way to fix the qualifying space issue is to reduce the number of teams that qualify. I'm not suggesting don't qualify Rookies or EI or Chairman's. I'm suggesting going back to 2v2. Or 2v2v2.

With 2v2, you will see fewer matches at a given event, however, at district events, the increased time between matches may be welcome (but I'll be on the opposite side where 60 team regionals will be LUCKY to get 8 matches). Could make sense if the current indication is only 50 teams in a division though...

But with 2v2v2, you get the best of both worlds. Still have 6 teams on a field a time, so you don't see any change to the current schedules or expectations of match numbers. But you only qualify 2(3) instead of 3(4) teams from an event. Then you only need 6 divisions of 75 and Einstein is some sort of weird round-robin type tournament where everyone plays everyone. But then we need #3Champs. Nevermind

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Was wondering how long this would take. I looked up 2015 numbers and saw 0 (FIRST's new website doesn't make it easy to filter by state). I later discovered there was a 2016 rookie. My bad.

I dunno--that single team could swing the balance of N/S quality...