2003 Game Flawed....

[Andy Grady]

Maybe so, maybe not. You can play the first match in such a manner that if you lose, you still can come back. All that matters is that you play the game with the correct strategy, inherent to any game. Just because the scoring system is not traditional does not mean it is flawed.

If you look at how chaotic this game was, many teams didn't quite understand the rules, so in the first match in an elimination round, they would keep themselves on the ramp, so on and so forth. Fact of the matter is if there is a difference in EP's of 90 points or more after the first match in an elimination round, it should be virtually impossible for any team to make that up if the leading team just plays smart. Score yourself 0 points, take out the stacks...there is nothing they can do to win. Not overly difficult with two free robots on the field. This, my friends, makes for a flawed game. I agree with Justin, there should be no such thing as a 1 match final. These games were more fun when it was two out of three...and isn't that what this is all about...making engineering fun? This is why we criticize the game, because we want it to be more fun. When its more fun, more students get into it, and it tends to stick in their minds. I understand that FIRST wants to get a point across about working together and other similar messages, and thats ok. But in the end, we all just want to have fun...you can get the same message across without making the game a metaphor.

thats just my opinion

Congrats To Everyone,
Andy Grady

[ZACH P.]

to all of you that insist on a more "fair" competition and such, look at what you are saying. you cannot have a competition where everbody wins, and that seems like what you are saying. we all start out as equally as it is humanly possible for FIRST to do, and it is up to us to figure out how to win. making it easier and simpler and such will only prove to turn a competition into basically a robot show.
dont be offended by what i say, just argue

[sevisehda]

M. Krass,

What I was trying to say is coming to CD and whining about things won't solve anything. Legitimate concerns should be sent to FIRST.

As soon as a team saw a bad call they should of gone and talked to a ref. Seeing they are volunteers they may not have a 100% understanding of all the rules. To the people who have issues with calls, did you go and talked to the refs before complaining about the refs on CD? I know they can't really change something after the fact but it may prevent them from making future mistakes.

I agree the highest score thing was a failure but just about everyone knows that. FIRST instilled it to cut the finals matching by a 3rd to save time. They won't do it again.

A final thought: Everytime I sign on to CD there are at least 3 threads complaining. Complaing to CD will solve nothing. CD isn't going to make next years game. FIRST will make next year's game so send your grievences there.

[Madison]

Originally posted by sevisehda
M. Krass,

What I was trying to say is coming to CD and whining about things won't solve anything. Legitimate concerns should be sent to FIRST.

...

A final thought: Everytime I sign on to CD there are at least 3 threads complaining. Complaing to CD will solve nothing. CD isn't going to make next years game. FIRST will make next year's game so send your grievences there.

I disagree. FIRST reads ChiefDelphi. They used to post here, even. I think that presenting your grievances in a tempered, intelligent manner and exchanging ideas about solutions is why this website exists.

The Team Forum exists as well, but many of the participants here cannot attend the Forum because of their role on their teams and their age.

This is their forum.

[Rurouni]

I disagree with your logic there M. Krass. Sure, people who work for FIRST may read the CD forums, but that doesn't mean anything. I talked in depth with some people from FIRST about this in detail after UTC. CD is a great reference area for people to connect and talk about their ideas, meet other FIRSTers and so-forth. However, it is an unofficial message board. This is why it drove alot of people from FIRST nuts every year when people go to chief delphi to contest rules, or to get a clarification. It creates confusion because sometimes different teams have different interpretation of the rules for that year and confusion is spread, and with CD being used often, it only spread that confusion quicker.

I agree that complaints, grievances and questions should be sent to FIRST, not the forums. But before people do, may sure it is a legitimate claim or question.

[DougHogg]

Originally posted by Rurouni
I disagree with your logic there M. Krass. Sure, people who work for FIRST may read the CD forums, but that doesn't mean anything. I talked in depth with some people from FIRST about this in detail after UTC. CD is a great reference area for people to connect and talk about their ideas, meet other FIRSTers and so-forth. However, it is an unofficial message board. This is why it drove alot of people from FIRST nuts every year when people go to chief delphi to contest rules, or to get a clarification. It creates confusion because sometimes different teams have different interpretation of the rules for that year and confusion is spread, and with CD being used often, it only spread that confusion quicker.

I agree that complaints, grievances and questions should be sent to FIRST, not the forums. But before people do, may sure it is a legitimate claim or question.

Certainly grievances and questions about rules should be brought up to FIRST, but this is a valid forum for bringing up suggestions and ideas for improvement. In fact, as I recall, in the kickoff this year, Dave Lavery specifically mentioned this forum as an inspiration for some of the ideas for the 2003 game.

Also by communicating our ideas here, we can possibly have a better grip on what to say when we go to FIRST's post season forums. In fact, someone who can't attend a forum may post a good idea here that is taken to the post season forum by someone else.

I think that most people agree that this year's game could have been improved upon. Creating a FIRST game is tough. I think that helping FIRST with feedback is very valuable. And communication about this year's game is a step in that direction.

[Madison]

Originally posted by Rurouni
I disagree with your logic there M. Krass. Sure, people who work for FIRST may read the CD forums, but that doesn't mean anything. I talked in depth with some people from FIRST about this in detail after UTC. CD is a great reference area for people to connect and talk about their ideas, meet other FIRSTers and so-forth. However, it is an unofficial message board. This is why it drove alot of people from FIRST nuts every year when people go to chief delphi to contest rules, or to get a clarification. It creates confusion because sometimes different teams have different interpretation of the rules for that year and confusion is spread, and with CD being used often, it only spread that confusion quicker.

I agree that complaints, grievances and questions should be sent to FIRST, not the forums. But before people do, may sure it is a legitimate claim or question.

If by reading these forums, FIRST is made aware of certain problems, questions, or necessary clarifications, I don't understand why this isn't a good thing.

I don't expect anyone from FIRST to make an official ruling based on a topic here, but it acts as an additional resource for teams and students to sound out their ideas before presenting them in any official manner.

As such, I don't consider a lot of the 'whining' people do here on CD to be negative in any capacity. It's providing them -- particularly students who don't have access to the Team Forum -- a forum to voice their concerns. As mentors, we should be listening to what students want from their experience in FIRST, but we should also be aware of what FIRST is trying to provide. Balancing our priorities and goals between passing along FIRST's message (without cramming it down someone's throat) and keeping the students happy would be much, much harder to do if this message board didn't exist.

For that, I'm thankful for much of the whining that people do. Even if I don't agree with what they may be whining about, it gives me another opportunity to see what the people I'm doing this for expect of me and it gives me one extra chance at doing a better job.

I like second chances.

[Mark Hamilton]

Originally posted by OneAngryDaisy
Yeah our alliance was DQ'd in the semis against Truck Town when both Buzz and T3 were stuck up against eachother. Buzz just happened to have wheels and had a advantage over T3, who was protecting a stack.. Either one could've been DQ'd-- And by the way, T3 did not even flip over.

I was watching from the stands and it looke like Buzz was intentionally tipping. The reason being Buzz came up and pushed them, failed, then they put down their arm, hitting truck town's and almost causing truck town to flip. Buzz then pulled away, and came back arm first, nearly flipping truck town again. Without the arm deployed Truck Town would not have started to flip, and Buzz would not have been in a situation to get Dq'd.

[Johca_Gaorl]

About sending things to FIRST rather than posting them here, I have to agree with M. Krass (finally ) FIRST reads these forums, and they listen to what we say. This is almost even a better place to tell them what you think, because you can get a general consensus from the community. Don't you remember the thread on here in which this year's game was designed? They listen, and this is a great place to say what you think needs to be changed. Probably better than sending a single e-mail.

[Jim Zondag]

In 8 years of competing, this was the worst game ever.
I found this very disturbing after the delagates from FIRST told us at the Forum last year that they were putting more emphasis on designing a good game after the problems they had with Zone Zeal.
I agree, the game will never be fair for everone, and we should always remember that this is a great experience, but FIRST must try harder and we MUST complain about what is wrong for a few key reasons,
As a mentor, I try to inspire through the mission of FIRST. The moment I have to start making excuses for FIRST, it undermines my ability to promote it as the greatest organization in the world. If there are glaring problems with the game, with the rules, with the scoring, or with anything; we must say something because to say nothing is saying that a mediocre organization is good enough. I cannot inspire greatness with mediocrity!!!

[Ryan Foley]

I dont mean to be rude but perhaps we should get back to what the topic was and discuss this matter in another thread, as this one is about the 2003 game, not about our opinions on whether FIRST listens to the posts on CD

but i do have to agree with M. Krass

[indieFan]

Originally posted by jburstein
For instance the LA regional; a team that was broken for every single one of their matches(and when they finally fixed things only functioned poorly) was ranked 4th at the end of the day friday, and through good part of saturday. I think they still wound up in the top 8, though i'm not sure.

On the other hand our robot was functioning very well, and we were dominant in all but one of our matches on friday. At the end i go and check out our ranking, and i'm very surprised not to see us in the first screen (the top 10 or so). So i wait a bit, thinking we must be at least 15th, 15 comes around, and we're not there. I had to wait until the high 30's to see my team number come up.

As an assistant coach for a 3rd year team and a rookie team, I was in both of these positions at LA this year. I do agree that the scoring system was not quite adequate this year in reflecting the working robots from the non-working robots. Someone from my veteran team even commented on how it seemed better to be a broken robot because your stacks wouldn't get ruined, and therefore you'd get a better score than an effective robot.

That said, I find that too many people are putting an emphasis on points and winning. My motto during the LA regionals for the rookie team was "One good round.. that's all I want. Just one good round for the girls who put so much time in." We finally got that one good round on Saturday after three days of struggling to get the robot working. The fact that we were working was worth more than all the points in the world to me!

Just my thoughts,
indieFan

[Soukup]

Flipping, ah yes, I remember now.

I was the alliance captain of the #1 alliance when Buzz came over and flipped Truck Town, to not only knock over our stack, but the robot as well.

This is what I was told. When we had an alliance captain meeting right after the picks, they explained what was inside and outside of the field. In qulaifying matches, there were 2 refs that were terrible and were missing calls left and right. SO the head ref explained how everything would work. He also mentioned tipping, and said that an intentional tip that drastically effected the score would result in a DQ. IN that match, Buzz got under 68 and began pushing, that was legal. The stack knocked over, and that was legal, truck town was almost flipped over at that time, but by having buzz back up, that would have allowed truck town to remained balanced. It was the fact that buzz continued topush, for no reason, other then to flip a robot that a disqualification was issued. That's at least what the head ref told me. I wanted a re-match, because we only got 10 points and both truck town and ourselves, drove off the ramp on purpose at the end so that our score wasn't added on to theirs, but it basically screwed us. It wold have been nice, if there was a flag thrown or having buzz disabled, but it didn't work out that way. They still ended up winning even though it was bizarre as hell. Nice job 341, 175, and 236, you guys did awesome.