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Unread 21-06-2016, 17:36
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Re: # of Divisions at Championships

I think you might consider Einsteins the equivalent of the Super Bowl... Champs itself is more like the play offs that lead up to it. And lets be completely honest, even a team as horrible as the Browns [1] makes it to the playoffs occasionally.

[1] I grew up in Ohio and am, unfortunately, a Browns fan
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Unread 21-06-2016, 17:37
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Re: # of Divisions at Championships

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Originally Posted by Jon Stratis View Post
I think you might consider Einsteins the equivalent of the Super Bowl... Champs itself is more like the play offs that lead up to it. And lets be completely honest, even a team as horrible as the Browns [1] makes it to the playoffs occasionally.

[1] I grew up in Ohio and am, unfortunately, a Browns fan
The Super Bowl of Smarts isn't my comparison. So my interpretation is kinda moot. You'd have to ask the Denim guy.
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Unread 21-06-2016, 17:45
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Re: # of Divisions at Championships

Does Dean refer to Championship as the Super Bowl of Smarts? Or FRC in general?
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Unread 21-06-2016, 18:10
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Re: # of Divisions at Championships

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Originally Posted by Jon Stratis View Post
You know, it bugs me a bit when people talk about "quality of robot/competition", like it's a bad thing that not everyone at champs has a perfect robot. I think it really misses the point of the whole competition - rookies, smaller teams, worse performing robots can all gain inspiration from being at an event with better teams. Teams of all flavors can gain experience, friendships, and show and receive recognition from teams from across the country and the world. It's one thing to play at your local even with pretty much the same teams every year. It's something completely different to play in an environment where you don't know everyone.

Is Champs all about the robot, or is it about Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology? Those teams that only get to go to champs rarely, if ever, can find it a transformational experience. Those teams that are always in contention for Einstein may not see the event as inspirational when they look around at glorified kit bots... but maybe that's because they're supposed to be the inspiration.

Instead of bemoaning how "watered down" champs is becoming, we should be trying to figure out how to make the event great for every team there.
I think the discussion of 4@100 vs 8@50 is directly related to the quality of experience teams can have at either of the postseason expositions. Pros and cons of each of these layouts and the ones in between have been discussed (and have not yet been discussed to the length that might be merited here). Drawing from the well of "bad robots are great for FIRST" is tangential to the conversation here and comes off as bait (that some of the posts between this one and yours have unfortunately taken). Bad robots have been at the Championship Events since 1992. Teams with a volatile pool of resources usually have not been catered to in these events. There is a difference.


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Originally Posted by InFlight View Post
The stated reason to going to two championships was to give more teams the championship experience and to accommodate growth. The experience is being emphasized over competition. Many dislike that fact but it is the direction FIRST is going. Eventually with team grow the quality of completion will improve, but it will be a different experience for all involved.

1) I fail to see the gracious professionalism in cheating your way through the playoffs with altered balls. Cough. Cough.

2) No team name needed.
I really don't know where to start with or finish with this post, so I guess I'll just ask "Why?"

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Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
Does Dean refer to Championship as the Super Bowl of Smarts? Or FRC in general?
FIRST has trademarked "The Varsity Sport for The Mind" as the tagline for the FRC program. Considering churches have been sent cease and desist letters by the NFL in the past for hosting "Super Bowl Chili Cookoffs", I'm going to assume a multimillion dollar not-for-profit also is discouraged from referring to the AFC-NFC Championship Game's title in any official capacity.

"The Super Bowl of Smarts" has morphed into a bit of a colloquialism. I am sure Dean has referred to the Championship Event being "like a Super Bowl" in the past, and you can find articles about the Championship event being referred to as "The Super Bowl of Smarts."

I have always agreed with using the tagline "The Varsity Sport for the Mind" and we will continue to use a less sanitized and fat-free vanilla version of that tag when we pitch our program.
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Unread 21-06-2016, 18:52
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Re: # of Divisions at Championships

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Originally Posted by PayneTrain View Post
I have always agreed with using the tagline "The Varsity Sport for the Mind" and we will continue to use a less sanitized and fat-free vanilla version of that tag when we pitch our program.
I'm afraid to ask because I know the PayneTrain doesn't stop...but what is your less sanitized and fat-free vanilla version of that tag line?
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Unread 21-06-2016, 19:06
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Re: # of Divisions at Championships

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I'm afraid to ask because I know the PayneTrain doesn't stop...but what is your less sanitized and fat-free vanilla version of that tag line?
#tsimfd
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Unread 21-06-2016, 19:20
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Re: # of Divisions at Championships

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I think the discussion of 4@100 vs 8@50 is directly related to the quality of experience teams can have at either of the postseason expositions. Pros and cons of each of these layouts and the ones in between have been discussed (and have not yet been discussed to the length that might be merited here). Drawing from the well of "bad robots are great for FIRST" is tangential to the conversation here and comes off as bait (that some of the posts between this one and yours have unfortunately taken). Bad robots have been at the Championship Events since 1992. Teams with a volatile pool of resources usually have not been catered to in these events. There is a difference.
My point wasn't aimed at discussions on the number of divisions... there are a lot of reasons to prefer one number over another, and it's a worthwhile discussion. My point was the sidetrack discussion of how the "level of play" changes based on the simple number of teams at champs. That is just not a worthwhile discussion to have, especially at this point, on many levels.
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Unread 21-06-2016, 19:30
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Re: # of Divisions at Championships

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My point wasn't aimed at discussions on the number of divisions... there are a lot of reasons to prefer one number over another, and it's a worthwhile discussion. My point was the sidetrack discussion of how the "level of play" changes based on the simple number of teams at champs. That is just not a worthwhile discussion to have, especially at this point, on many levels.
I'm going to agree on this.

I'm also going to reiterate a point I made the last time this came up, that some people, who think this is a robot building contest, are in serious trouble--and that's actually from Dean or Woodie at Kickoff some years back.

This is a robot building contest, yes--but it's also a bunch of life lessons, a passel of inspiration, and hopefully some recognition. It's also a pretty severe time sink... Treating it as just a robot building contest is not accurate.


What I'd be hoping for would be 8 divisions, 50 teams each, NO MORE THAN 12 matches per team. (Wait, what?) Before you all start going crazy, I'd also say that no fewer than 10 matches would be acceptable. And the reason for that is to allow either more free time or less overall time. This would particularly benefit smaller teams, in that they could get out more and see more of the event, if the free time route was chosen, or that they might be able to cheat a little bit on travel and come in on Thursday morning with minimal loss of time in the pits. More inspiration, less time sink/burnout... interesting dilemma, I'd say.
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Unread 21-06-2016, 20:02
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Re: # of Divisions at Championships

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Originally Posted by Jon Stratis View Post
My point wasn't aimed at discussions on the number of divisions... there are a lot of reasons to prefer one number over another, and it's a worthwhile discussion. My point was the sidetrack discussion of how the "level of play" changes based on the simple number of teams at champs. That is just not a worthwhile discussion to have, especially at this point, on many levels.
My point (and as far as I can tell, everyone else in this thread who has argued against 8 divisions at half champs) is that with 8 50 team divisions, particularly in the South half champs (which is 25% waitlist teams, from what we currently know), the quality of the average robot will be substantially worse than the quality of the average robot at the 2015/2016 championship event, which was already worse than the 2011-2014 Championships.

We're well past the point about complaining that half champs is diluting the quality of the event. What I'm saying is that with an already diluted competition it would be idiotic to run 8 divisions and cause even further dilution. Not to mention the fact that it will put an even bigger strain on your volunteer base that you're already spreading too thin by holding 2 events in the first place.
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Unread 21-06-2016, 20:41
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Re: # of Divisions at Championships

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Originally Posted by ahartnet View Post
I'm afraid to ask because I know the PayneTrain doesn't stop...but what is your less sanitized and fat-free vanilla version of that tag line?
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottandme View Post
#tsimfd
This is pretty close. What I really mean is that calling it the Varsity Sport for the Mind is a good tagline that FIRST uses, and we use the same idea behind that tagline to form the recruitment process of our program. The long term goals set for 422 is to get strong, long-term investment of all stakeholders to ensure the longevity and alleged potential for any remotely interesting success in the far off future. (this is at leas half a joke)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stratis View Post
My point wasn't aimed at discussions on the number of divisions... there are a lot of reasons to prefer one number over another, and it's a worthwhile discussion. My point was the sidetrack discussion of how the "level of play" changes based on the simple number of teams at champs. That is just not a worthwhile discussion to have, especially at this point, on many levels.
That's fair. The splitting of the event is a forgone conclusion and a fact that is baked into the existing value proposition for teams, for better or for worse. I am of the opinion that 4 @ 100 can provide the best possible experience for everyone at each event instead of 8 @ 50. You sacrifice division intimacy for what I would call a "balanced match schedule" that allows teams a fair number of plays and a lot of time to do the things at championship that aren't just the matches, a volunteer base that will not go from strained to structurally dangerous, and a better on-field product. I think having 128 teams in those eliminations would provide a better experience for all parties instead of the 192 you would get for 8 @ 50 (assuming that we drop backups).

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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
I'm going to agree on this.

I'm also going to reiterate a point I made the last time this came up, that some people, who think this is a robot building contest, are in serious trouble--and that's actually from Dean or Woodie at Kickoff some years back.

This is a robot building contest, yes--but it's also a bunch of life lessons, a passel of inspiration, and hopefully some recognition. It's also a pretty severe time sink... Treating it as just a robot building contest is not accurate.


What I'd be hoping for would be 8 divisions, 50 teams each, NO MORE THAN 12 matches per team. (Wait, what?) Before you all start going crazy, I'd also say that no fewer than 10 matches would be acceptable. And the reason for that is to allow either more free time or less overall time. This would particularly benefit smaller teams, in that they could get out more and see more of the event, if the free time route was chosen, or that they might be able to cheat a little bit on travel and come in on Thursday morning with minimal loss of time in the pits. More inspiration, less time sink/burnout... interesting dilemma, I'd say.
2015 was a robot building contest and the community very soundly rejected it. Most years however we do still have a robotics competition. It is still called the FIRST Robotics Competition. The powers-that-be have the ability to change the name of the program if they see fit. Until then, the competition should not necessarily be the end-all-be-all of every FIRST event (if only because it violates the internal logic of this argument, the name FIRST Robotics Competition does still have "FIRST" in it) but it also not something to be actively ignored.

I am pretty thankful that we usually do not have robot building contests because frankly I am very terrible at building robots but do what most would describe as a remotely passable job or at least a somewhat disguised impersonation of a coach for a competitive team.

12 matches per event in the district system is very much pushing many team's limits in terms of in-event upkeep and the time spent at the venue. I think the 12 matches per event is GREAT at the local level. For large scale travel, I think it could be considered a mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Ore View Post
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfi...4810:ig89v.3.1

Actually, FIRST didn't trademark it - College Bowl Company Inc trademarked "The Varsity Sport of the Mind"
FIRST has trademarked "Sport for the Mind" and describes FRC as the varsity "Sport for the Mind." While I initially found your semantics here to be grating, my frustration at the USPTO database to attempt to explain myself is currently... considerable. Guess the joke's on me. I can't find it anywhere on there, but someone had it down as a trademark in the championship program. Take it up with them.
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Unread 26-06-2016, 20:11
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Re: # of Divisions at Championships

It's gonna be REALLY hard to get enough volunteers for what amounts to 16 events! If Jess pulls this off and can fill up both events they should put her in the hall of fame!
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Unread 26-06-2016, 20:59
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Re: # of Divisions at Championships

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Originally Posted by Koko Ed View Post
It's gonna be REALLY hard to get enough volunteers for what amounts to 16 events! If Jess pulls this off and can fill up both events they should put her in the hall of fame!
I think she's already in there.*

And actually, it's eight events -- and then another eight events the next weekend. So Jess might (probably will) get half the number of volunteers for some roles, but those people will be twice as crazy.



*CMP Volunteer of the Year is in the same rare stratum as Chairman's and WFA, in my book.
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Unread 27-06-2016, 18:26
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Re: # of Divisions at Championships

There's one thing that continues to be forgotten in this thread:
Matches will be played in the pits, not the arenas.

Quote:
What activities will be happening in each of the venues in each of the Championship host cities?

In 2015 and 2016, FIRST will host an expanded Olympic-style Championship throughout downtown St. Louis. In 2017, the St. Louis Championship will be similarly sized to the 2014 Championship held there

For the Houston Championship, Opening Ceremonies will be held in the Toyota Center, home of the Houston Rockets. Competition matches for all programs will be held in the George R. Brown Convention Center, followed by Closing Ceremonies in Minute Maid Park, home of the Houston Astros, which has a retractable roof.

For the Detroit Championship, Opening and Closing Ceremonies will be held in Ford Field, an enclosed domed stadium, which is home to the Detroit Lions. Competition matches for all programs will be held in Cobo Center.
You will not see 8 fields in the pits, plus practice fields, so the only way 8 divisions happens is if two divisions share a field. Or fields get smaller.

I suggested this in the north vs south thread but perhaps we could see the return of a 2v2 format. This would create fewer qualifiers from Regionals, thus giving more room for growth (more waitlist teams initially though). 2v2 format with 50 team divisions wouldn't be AS bad. Or they could make everyone go crazy and try a 2v2v2 format (it's been done, I personally loved it, but most people didn't) and give us that magic 75 team 6 division setup, and play Einstein with some sort of round-robin format.

Or we could do away with divisions and have top 32 and truck all 32 alliances to the dome and play all of the elim matches on Einstein.
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Unread 27-06-2016, 19:22
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Re: # of Divisions at Championships

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Originally Posted by Kevin Kolodziej View Post
I suggested this in the north vs south thread but perhaps we could see the return of a 2v2 format. This would create fewer qualifiers from Regionals, thus giving more room for growth (more waitlist teams initially though). 2v2 format with 50 team divisions wouldn't be AS bad. Or they could make everyone go crazy and try a 2v2v2 format (it's been done, I personally loved it, but most people didn't) and give us that magic 75 team 6 division setup, and play Einstein with some sort of round-robin format.
You do realize that going to a 2v2 format would mean teams give up 1/3 of their matches, right? events with 12 matches per team would be down to 8, 9 matches would be down to 6. Something tells me that's not how they want to go.

As for 2v2v2... that could work for a 6-division championship format, but what about regional/district events? How do you make it work with 8 playoff alliances? Or would we have to decrease that to 6 as well?

If you're going with a round-robin type format for Einstein, you can do that with a normal 3v3 and 6 divisions, no need to change the game format for it.
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Unread 27-06-2016, 22:42
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Re: # of Divisions at Championships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stratis View Post
As for 2v2v2... that could work for a 6-division championship format, but what about regional/district events? How do you make it work with 8 playoff alliances? Or would we have to decrease that to 6 as well?
To paraphrase Andy Grady, you take one alliance off the field and change everything.

In other news, I think some reading of the '98 manual might be in order. (Feel free to go for the '97 and I think a couple before that, too--TechnoKats History Project has a wealth of information.)
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