Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017

[Tem1514 Mentor]

I'm still reading about the District model but one of my main questions is;
How do you qualify for worlds.

I reading about wining points for each of the two district events then the highest teams go to a district championship. So does that mean only the winning alliance at the district champs get to go to the world champs?

What about the winning alliance at each district event, wild card slots and the list goes on?

Is there a more simple explanation somewhere as what will qualify a team for worlds?

Just as I had the regional model figured out something new. Time to learn some more.

[Brian Maher]

Originally Posted by Tem1514 Mentor

I'm still reading about the District model but one of my main questions is;
How do you qualify for worlds.

I reading about wining points for each of the two district events then the highest teams go to a district championship. So does that mean only the winning alliance at the district champs get to go to the world champs?

What about the winning alliance at each district event, wild card slots and the list goes on?

Is there a more simple explanation somewhere as what will qualify a team for worlds?

Just as I had the regional model figured out something new. Time to learn some more.

Individual district events do not qualify teams for Champs. Their purpose is to award district points to teams. The top teams in the district based on the total points earned at their first two events in the district, and district event Chairman's winners, will advance to the District Championship. Here, points are awarded using the same criteria as district events, but with a multiplier of 3. This places a great emphasis on the District Championship.

Your district will receive an allocation of CMP slots proportional to the percentage of FRC teams that are in your district, though pre-qualified (Hall of Fame, Legacy, previous year CMP Winners/EI) teams do not count toward or against this allocation. Teams earn these spots by:

• Winning District Championship (3 or 4)
• District Championship Chairman's Award (1-3)
• District Championship Engineering Inspiration Award (1-3)
• District Championship Rookie All Star (1)
• Qualifying at a regional (which does count against the district allocation)

This will not take up all the spots. The remaining spots are given to the top ranked teams by district points. There are no wildcards per-se, but any team who qualifies through multiple Regional/DCMP qualifying awards will convert the extra to another points slot. Any team who qualifies for Champs within the district and declines will create a new points slot.

For additional info, see Section 7.4 of the Admin Manual.

[Kleiman]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Can you breakdown your numbers? I'm not following.

There is little complexity to the numbers.

Previous years in TDSB = $0 for regional (which is local for all TDSB schools)

Now = $7500 - $5000 covered by TDSB = $2500 to qualify for regionals
This includes a trip out of town (busing + hotel)

If we qualify for regionals that's $3000 - $1500 covered by TDSB = $1500

That's $4000 plus two out of town events
(To be clear the numbers covered by TDSB were sent to team mentors with the announcement of moving to the district model)

The bar is raised significantly higher for Toronto teams to participate. If teams think this will lead to program growth, I can't imagine how.
Teams in areas outside of Toronto that struggle to attend one event will surely not be able to pay more and go to three.

More plays for better value vs more small scale and new teams participating... Seems like a no brainer trade off to me.

For the record, we were regional semi finalists this year who may be priced out of FIRST for next year.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

There is little complexity to the numbers.

Previous years in TDSB = $0 for regional (which is local for all TDSB schools)

Now = $7500 - $5000 covered by TDSB = $2500 to qualify for regionals
This includes a trip out of town (busing + hotel)

If we qualify for regionals that's $3000 - $1500 covered by TDSB = $1500

That's $4000 plus two out of town events

The bar is raised significantly higher for Toronto teams to participate. If teams think this will lead to program growth, I can't imagine how.
Teams in areas outside of Toronto that struggle to attend one event will surely not be able to pay more and go to three.

More plays for better value vs more small scale and new teams participating... Seems like a no brainer trade off to me.

For the record, we were regional semi finalists this year who may be priced out of FIRST for next year.

When you say regionals, do you mean the District Championship?

Is $2500 a prohibitive amount to fund raise?

Is it possible that TDSB could increase their payment to cover the new base registration once they're made aware that is now the new minimum fee?

[mman1506]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

There is little complexity to the numbers.

Previous years in TDSB = $0 for regional (which is local for all TDSB schools)

Now = $7500 - $5000 covered by TDSB = $2500 to qualify for regionals
This includes a trip out of town (busing + hotel)

If we qualify for regionals that's $3000 - $1500 covered by TDSB = $1500

That's $4000 plus two out of town events
(To be clear the numbers covered by TDSB were sent to team mentors with the announcement of moving to the district model)

The bar is raised significantly higher for Toronto teams to participate. If teams think this will lead to program growth, I can't imagine how.
Teams in areas outside of Toronto that struggle to attend one event will surely not be able to pay more and go to three.

More plays for better value vs more small scale and new teams participating... Seems like a no brainer trade off to me.

For the record, we were regional semi finalists this year who may be priced out of FIRST for next year.

Remember that Karthiks numbers are in CAD. If we were still in the regional system the TDSB would have to pay out 6400 CAD to each team for registration. The additional cost is only 1100 CAD (roughly) for tons of additional value. As a fellow TDSB team I'd expect that TDSB would step up there contribution. FIRST Canada and the TDSB have a strong relationship and it has likely already been discussed.

The fact of the matter is that the TDSBs contribution is already very generous and we are already very lucky to receive any money at all. Very few school districts offer similar support.

[Kleiman]

Originally Posted by nuclearnerd

OK, I'm not following these numbers either. We're not in the TDSB, but if they paid the full cost of your first regional last year, they would have given FIRST 6500 CAD to cover the 5000 USD registration. That is still less than the 7500 new fee, but it's not as drastic as you suggested. I would be shocked if the TDSB didn't amend its donations for 2017, if their goal is to make it painless for teams to participate.

As for the cost of third event (district champs / worlds) - your own chart shows it's cheaper than a second or third event under the old system, it's entirely optional, and at minimum you're getting more competition time for the same money. What's not to like?

The only scenario where the price is higher in the new system would be if you only wanted to go to one event, and then go to worlds. That's a very lucky thing to plan for. In the new system you've got a very good chance of attending three events for the same price as the above scenario, including a very nice culminating event in a venue that's much cheaper to travel to.

Prepare to be as shocked as I was then. TDSB is providing $5000 CAD for the district events and $1500 for regionals.

We don't consider it a "lucky thing" to plan to go to one regional, we consider it a sustainable financial and time commitment and it has enriched our school tremendously.

Attending 3 events likely means the death of our program. I am scrambling to keep my program alive that I have poured my heart into for our two year existence.

Wealthy teams with lots of mentors that already go to many events will enjoy a savings of a few thousand dollars. I would rather see less matches accommodating more teams, rather than more matches that fewer teams can afford and get to.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

Prepare to be as shocked as I was then. TDSB is providing $5000 CAD for the district events and $1500 for regionals.

We don't consider it a "lucky thing" to plan to go to one regional, we consider it a sustainable financial and time commitment and it has enriched our school tremendously.

Attending 3 events likely means the death of our program. I am scrambling to keep my program alive that I have poured my heart into for our two year existence.

Wealthy teams with lots of mentors that already go to many events will enjoy a savings of a few thousand dollars. I would rather see less matches accommodating more teams, rather than more matches that fewer teams can afford and get to.

What am I missing, why not just attend two district events then?

[Kleiman]

Originally Posted by mman1506

Remember that Karthiks numbers are in CAD. If we were still in the regional system the TDSB would have to pay out 6400 CAD to each team for registration. The additional cost is only 1100 CAD (roughly) for tons of additional value. As a fellow TDSB team I'd expect that TDSB would step up there contribution. FIRST Canada and the TDSB have a strong relationship and it has likely already been discussed.

The fact of the matter is that the TDSBs contribution is already very generous and we are already very lucky to receive any money at all. Very few school districts offer similar support.

We are very grateful to the TDSB. We owe our existence to them as do many teams. Our existence with their generosity was possible. That is likely not the case anymore. Even with their generous donations we are now priced out of this phenomenal program. I am sure that students will benefit from more competition events. The trade off is added cost and time that many will not be able to afford. It is a trade off of course. My values lean toward less cost and more participants over more cost for more game time.

[Kleiman]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

What am I missing, why not just attend two district events then?

You are suggesting that we pay an additional $2500 plus the cost of travel and hotel and if we qualify for regionals we simply say no and end our season?

Possible, but not as easy a sell as you imply.

I also just read your other post, and it is surprising to me that you don't think $2500 is a prohibitive amount to raise on top of our operating costs. It is as if you ignored the fact too that we are talking about $4000 of added cost just to participate plus the added cost of travel and hotels. So yes, it is prohibitive. You may also be interested to know that this would be our 3rd season meaning that it is the first year that our rookie grant money expires. We made a sustainable fundraising plan for an annual budget of roughly $2500. That would have been enough to play at one Toronto regional with the gracious support of the TDSB. If we qualified for St. Louis, we would have had to earn our way there.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

You are suggesting that we pay an additional $2500 plus the cost of travel and hotel and if we qualify for regionals we simply say no and end our season?

Possible, but not as easy a sell as you imply.

Out of curiosity, what would you have done if you qualified for World CMP in 2016? Would you attend?

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

You are suggesting that we pay an additional $2500 plus the cost of travel and hotel and if we qualify for regionals we simply say no and end our season?

Possible, but not as easy a sell as you imply.

I also just read your other post, and it is surprising to me that you don't think $2500 is a prohibitive amount to raise on top of our operating costs. It is as if you ignored the fact too that we are talking about $4000 of added cost just to participate plus the added cost of travel and hotels. So yes, it is prohibitive. You may also be interested to know that this would be our 3rd season meaning that it is the first year that our rookie grant money expires. We made a sustainable fundraising plan for an annual budget of roughly $2500. That would have been enough to play at one Toronto regional with the gracious support of the TDSB. If we qualified for St. Louis, we would have had to earn our way there.

I assume Adam is ignorant to the financial situation of your greater Toronto area school considering he lives in California. The variables surrounding the capacity to raise an additional $2500 over the course of the year for Adam's program may be easier than where you live. I'm not going to pretend if it is or not because I live in Virginia.

I also would be remiss to point out that I am not aware of many people in the FRC community that believes a team can operate with under $7500 of revenue in the first place. I hope that this is not an illusion that people are telling new and potential teams. Most teams in the United States receive money for their programs with a large amount of corporate sponsorship because of the high coasts of participating in FRC.

[Kleiman]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Out of curiosity, what would you have done if you qualified for World CMP in 2016? Would you attend?

I briefly addressed this in my previous comment.

If we qualified in our second season participating:
a) I would have been very surprised (though it almost happened)
b) we would have raised funds specifically for that event. They would have to earn their way there
c) I understand that since it is so few teams that go, the TDSB could potentially have provided additional support.

In reality I was sweating when my team made it to the semi finals. If we became a consistent champion caliber team, I would consider increasing my annual fundraising goals.

[rwodonnell]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

You are suggesting that we pay an additional $2500 plus the cost of travel and hotel and if we qualify for regionals we simply say no and end our season?

Possible, but not as easy a sell as you imply.

Like others, I think, I am struggling with your numbers, since for us in N.E., the district model has made things better financially, but since I don't follow the details of the Toronto school board as you've laid them out, I'll trust that it really costs $2500 more to participate in the two district events versus the one regional.

But you have mentioned a number of times the cost of travel, and from what I can see, that should not be a problem. Here's a map I made of the Ontario district events. The District Championships (note: not "regional") is the green marker. I'm not sure where exactly in Toronto you are located, but I would think that the events at Ryerson University, Durham College and McMaster University would all be within an hour, give or take a few minutes. Waterloo and Georgian College would add maybe a half hour, but still commutable. Aren't these the same locations you had before the district system, plus a few others?

[Aren Siekmeier]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

I briefly addressed this in my previous comment.

If we qualified in our second season participating:
a) I would have been very surprised (though it almost happened)
b) we would have raised funds specifically for that event. They would have to earn their way there
c) I understand that since it is so few teams that go, the TDSB could potentially have provided additional support.

In reality I was sweating when my team made it to the semi finals. If we became a consistent champion caliber team, I would consider increasing my annual fundraising goals.

In reverse order:
c) Sounds like this applies to district champs (what you seem to be calling regionals) - TDSB offers an additional 1500 CAD toward that event.
b) very well could apply to district champs as well.
a) You are however more likely (less surprised) to qualify for district champs compared to champs.

Perhaps if the team expects to qualify for district champs, now would be a good time to increase annual fundraising goals.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by rwodonnell

Like others, I think, I am struggling with your numbers, since for us in N.E., the district model has made things better financially, but since I don't follow the details of the Toronto school board as you've laid them out, I'll trust that it really costs $2500 more to participate in the two district events versus the one regional.

But you have mentioned a number of times the cost of travel, and from what I can see, that should not be a problem. Here's a map I made of the Ontario district events. The District Championships (note: not "regional") is the green marker. I'm not sure where exactly in Toronto you are located, but I would think that the events at Ryerson University, Durham College and McMaster University would all be within an hour, give or take a few minutes. Waterloo and Georgian College would add maybe a half hour, but still commutable. Aren't these the same locations you had before the district system, plus a few others?

I am not the poster in question but #5699 is based out of Forest Hill Collegiate Institute, a school located in the eponymous neighborhood Forest Hill in the north side of Toronto. There are two District Events and the DCMP within what Google estimates to be an hour drive.