Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017

[mman1506]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

You are suggesting that we pay an additional $2500 plus the cost of travel and hotel and if we qualify for regionals we simply say no and end our season?

Possible, but not as easy a sell as you imply.

I also just read your other post, and it is surprising to me that you don't think $2500 is a prohibitive amount to raise on top of our operating costs. It is as if you ignored the fact too that we are talking about $4000 of added cost just to participate plus the added cost of travel and hotels. So yes, it is prohibitive. You may also be interested to know that this would be our 3rd season meaning that it is the first year that our rookie grant money expires. We made a sustainable fundraising plan for an annual budget of roughly $2500. That would have been enough to play at one Toronto regional with the gracious support of the TDSB. If we qualified for St. Louis, we would have had to earn our way there.

You can compete at Waterloo, Ryerson, Durham College, Hershey Center (District Champs) with only a school bus driving back and forth. We almost always do that. According to FIRST Canada there is also an additional event in the works that will be in the GTA.

[Kleiman]

Originally Posted by rwodonnell

Like others, I think, I am struggling with your numbers, since for us in N.E., the district model has made things better financially, but since I don't follow the details of the Toronto school board as you've laid them out, I'll trust that it really costs $2500 more to participate in the two district events versus the one regional.

But you have mentioned a number of times the cost of travel, and from what I can see, that should not be a problem. Here's a map I made of the Ontario district events. The District Championships (note: not "regional") is the green marker. I'm not sure where exactly in Toronto you are located, but I would think that the events at Ryerson University, Durham College and McMaster University would all be within an hour, give or take a few minutes. Waterloo and Georgian College would add maybe a half hour, but still commutable. Aren't these the same locations you had before the district system, plus a few others?

It cost $2 per student to take the subway to the event downtown. No bus rental, and the robot goes in my car. A rush hour drive to Mississauga, Hamilton or Oshawa to arrive by 8am is well over an hour each way. You are correct though, it may be possible to avoid the need for a hotel, but I have not looked into these details yet. It is likely more expensive to go out of town and certainly more complicated logistically. I did not intend to overexaggerate the added burden of the new model for us. The most prohibitive part is the added cost of registration without a doubt.

[Knufire]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

It cost $2 per student to take the subway to the event downtown. No bus rental, and the robot goes in my car. A rush hour drive to Mississauga, Hamilton or Oshawa to arrive by 8am is well over an hour each way. You are correct though, it may be possible to avoid the need for a hotel, but I have not looked into these details yet. It is likely more expensive to go out of town and certainly more complicated logistically. I did not intend to overexaggerate the added burden of the new model for us. The most prohibitive part is the added cost of registration without a doubt.

In the US, the team registration cost is the same for teams in the regional and district system ($5000 USD). It is possible that your woes are due to the weak Canadian dollar and TDSB reallocating where their contribution goes.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

I briefly addressed this in my previous comment.

If we qualified in our second season participating:
a) I would have been very surprised (though it almost happened)
b) we would have raised funds specifically for that event. They would have to earn their way there
c) I understand that since it is so few teams that go, the TDSB could potentially have provided additional support.

In reality I was sweating when my team made it to the semi finals. If we became a consistent champion caliber team, I would consider increasing my annual fundraising goals.

Why not raise funds specifically for your district championship event, should you qualify?

[GreyingJay]

I wish other school boards would give funding assistance like TDSB does. Maybe we should approach our board and say "why not here too?"

We will be doing our own fundraising, sponsorship, and collecting student fees, to cover our ~$7500 CAD cost for the two district events, and the additional ~$3000 CAD to go to district champs should we qualify. The way we see it, 2 district events + district champs (for a total of 3 competitions) is about the same price as it was to go to two regionals before. Actually slightly less given the current CAD vs USD. Granted this isn't factoring the extra transportation/hotel cost for the third competition.

(And if we are fortunate enough to qualify for Champs -- that would be our fourth competition event -- I'm sure we could do additional fundraising!)

Students who go to competitions are responsible for covering their share of the hotel and transportation costs. We drive down in parent-driven cars and stay in a hotel. I wish taking the subway was a possibility!

We are getting pretty good at doing bottle drives. They are easy to organize, and using a public drop-off spot gives additional exposure. Each time we do one we can net $800-1000. We have a lot of other ideas for fundraisers, but this is a staple.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by GreyingJay

I wish other school boards would give funding assistance like TDSB does. Maybe we should approach our board and say "why not here too?"

Yes you should, I doubt that the TDSB just decided to start funding teams w/o someone asking. Connect with other teams in your district, find out the right person on the school district to approach and give it a shot.

Or bypass your local school board and go right to the provincial government.

Our state level school administration has grants for FIRST teams and that was all started by a team heading to the capitol and talking to the law makers and the office of the superintendent of public instruction.

The worst that happens is they tell you no, the best that happens is that your team in others in your area get funding.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Yes you should, I doubt that the TDSB just decided to start funding teams w/o someone asking. Connect with other teams in your district, find out the right person on the school district to approach and give it a shot.

Or bypass your local school board and go right to the provincial government.

In terms of the Provincial Government, FIRST Canada is already supported by the Ontario Ministry of Education as a platinum sponsor, providing assistance to events and teams. The incredible growth that FIRST has seen in Ontario for the past few years would not have been possible without this level of government support.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

I also just read your other post, and it is surprising to me that you don't think $2500 is a prohibitive amount to raise on top of our operating costs. It is as if you ignored the fact too that we are talking about $4000 of added cost just to participate plus the added cost of travel and hotels.

I think this may be where people are getting confused. In the States two District competitions are the same cost $5,000 USD as one Regional competition. So people see your difficulty as "only needing to raise whatever isn't covered by TDSB". For teams without a TDSB to support them, we typically have to raise $5,000 plus robot costs, travel, team expenses each year. Perhaps if you explained how your situation differs from that it would help people to understand. Is it only the difference between what TDSB provides and the total cost?

[gp2013]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

There is little complexity to the numbers.

Previous years in TDSB = $0 for regional (which is local for all TDSB schools)

Now = $7500 - $5000 covered by TDSB = $2500 to qualify for regionals
This includes a trip out of town (busing + hotel)

If we qualify for regionals that's $3000 - $1500 covered by TDSB = $1500

That's $4000 plus two out of town events
(To be clear the numbers covered by TDSB were sent to team mentors with the announcement of moving to the district model)

The bar is raised significantly higher for Toronto teams to participate. If teams think this will lead to program growth, I can't imagine how.
Teams in areas outside of Toronto that struggle to attend one event will surely not be able to pay more and go to three.

More plays for better value vs more small scale and new teams participating... Seems like a no brainer trade off to me.

For the record, we were regional semi finalists this year who may be priced out of FIRST for next year.

It may be that this is a good opportunity to reevaluate your funding model. As a team with zero school board support, we, like 2706 and nearly every other FRC team, have to somehow generate tens of thousands of dollars each year. As a largely rural team from a community of 1200 you can imagine the difficulties.

Reach out to other teams to see how they do it. Now is the perfect time to be seeking funding. I suggest starting with local service groups like Rotary, Legions, Lions, etc. Not only do they support initiaitives like this that serve youth, doing the presentation gives your team members incredibly valuable public speaking practice.

Local industry is another great opportunity.
One benefit we found of having industry sponsors is that once you get them onboard and they see the value of yhe program they start to hire your students or provide coop or internship opportunities.

Get parents on board to lead up the fundraising efforts so your workload doesn't increase.

Once your community starts to see the value of the program, they will be incredibly supportive.

And if something were to happen to your TDSB funding you wouldn't be left without a program.

As for a second district event...Head north on the 400 (rush hour is going the opposite way) and come join us at Georgian College in Barrie!

[WelderManiac]

Originally Posted by Kleiman

This new system is essentially squeezing out small, but currently sustainable teams in favor of big budget, mentor heavy teams that already have robust programs. The only advantage I can see here is more rounds of play for better value. The trade off is taking away the entire FIRST experience from smaller scale teams. We were alliance captains and semi-finalists this year. Next year, I am nearly certain that our team must fold. This is deeply disappointing.

Disappointing indeed. I can perfectly understand how some little teams are going to benefit from this, due to the fact that their events are easily accessible. For teams like mine, our budget will have to nearly double to accommodate traveling to two events.

It's deeply saddening that FIRST Canada has (seemingly) thrown their cares about less powerful teams to the wind to fit in with places like Michigan and Indiana. Although I've never attended, I'm sure that districts are awesome; but to many teams in Ontario, they're completely unsustainable.

[Karthik]

- In 2016, 137 Ontario teams played 197 times before Champs, and spent $1,184,000.00 CAD in registration fees. This works out to $6,010.15 per play. (This was assuming an exchange rate of 1.28, which was a low estimate)
- In 2017, 137 Ontario teams will play at least 334 times before Champs, and will spend $1,207,500.00 CAD in registration fees. This works out to $3,615.327 per play.

$6000 vs. $3600 per play on average. That's a huge cost savings for Ontario teams. Also, a radical increase in the amount of plays teams will be getting. This means teams will have more chances to showcase and compete with robots, while also having more opportunities to learn and iterate. I do feel sympathy for the teams from remote areas who have incredible travel hardships to deal with. But hopefully FIRST Canada and our community can come up with solutions to help these teams be sustainable in our new model.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by WelderManiac

Disappointing indeed. I can perfectly understand how some little teams are going to benefit from this, due to the fact that their events are easily accessible. For teams like mine, our budget will have to nearly double to accommodate traveling to two events.

It's deeply saddening that FIRST Canada has (seemingly) thrown their cares about less powerful teams to the wind to fit in with places like Michigan and Indiana. Although I've never attended, I'm sure that districts are awesome; but to many teams in Ontario, they're completely unsustainable.

FRC Team 4732 attended the Greater Toronto East Regional last year and played 10 matches. The Greater Toronto East Regional site is now hosting a district event. Each district event guarantees 12 matches.

Your team is welcome to only attend one district event and get an experience that is likely very similar to the one you experienced last year, but with two more matches and 6 hours of bag time. By most metrics, you are getting more value out of the exact same event in the 2017 season that you did in the 2016 season.

On top of that, you also have the option to go to a second event at no additional registration cost. I do encourage all teams to go to events that they have essentially already paid for, especially since you will be allotted 6 hours of bag time between your first and second event and 12 additional matches. However, I don't expect Shawn Lim or any other staff member of FIRST Canada to put a gun to your head and show up for the second event.

I do understand that if you approach the the change from regionals to districts as a system that provides a $4000+ barrier between you and one of the postseason expos, you might be upset. However, the chances of merit qualifying off of one event hovers around 5%.

[cbale2000]

Originally Posted by Karthik

- In 2016, 137 Ontario teams played 197 times before Champs, and spent $1,184,000.00 CAD in registration fees. This works out to $6,010.15 per play. (This was assuming an exchange rate of 1.28, which was a low estimate)
- In 2017, 137 Ontario teams will play at least 334 times before Champs, and will spend $1,207,500.00 CAD in registration fees. This works out to $3,615.327 per play.

$6000 vs. $3600 per play on average.

I don't think anyone's arguing that District registration fees aren't a better value than regionals, just that in the particular case of Ontario the total cost for initial registration will be higher with districts than it is with the current regional system.

When most regions move to districts, they maintain the standard registration fee associated with the previous regional system (~$5000). Out of curiosity, what was the rational for Ontario to raise the price beyond that? IMO it makes it much easier to sell districts if the only additional cost is travel expenses due to attending an additional event (or an overall cost savings if your team previously went to 2 events anyways).

[GreyingJay]

Originally Posted by cbale2000

I don't think anyone's arguing that District registration fees aren't a better value than regionals, just that in the particular case of Ontario the total cost for initial registration will be higher with districts than it is with the current regional system.

When most regions move to districts, they maintain the standard registration fee associated with the previous regional system (~$5000). Out of curiosity, what was the rational for Ontario to raise the price beyond that? IMO it makes it much easier to sell districts if the only additional cost is travel expenses due to attending an additional event (or an overall cost savings if your team previously went to 2 events anyways).

The cost to register last year was $5000 USD for one regional. (And unfortunately last November when our fees were due our dollar was at its worst in a long time against the USD, at about 70 cents.)

The cost to register for Ontario districts is said to be "around $7500 CAD". This is a bit more than $5000 USD converted to Canadian funds at today's rates (which would sit closer to $6500). We will be paying in Canadian dollars and FIRST Canada will assume any risk of fluctuations in the currency.

So, either they've made a slight increase to absorb some of the risk and expense, or the $7500 figure will be adjusted to account for the actual conversion rate closer to the time fees are due. They've said to expect some variance and that $7500 is not a hard figure, so maybe this is much ado over nothing?

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Karthik

- In 2016, 137 Ontario teams played 197 times before Champs, and spent $1,184,000.00 CAD in registration fees. This works out to $6,010.15 per play. (This was assuming an exchange rate of 1.28, which was a low estimate)
- In 2017, 137 Ontario teams will play at least 334 times before Champs, and will spend $1,207,500.00 CAD in registration fees. This works out to $3,615.327 per play.

$6000 vs. $3600 per play on average. That's a huge cost savings for Ontario teams. Also, a radical increase in the amount of plays teams will be getting. This means teams will have more chances to showcase and compete with robots, while also having more opportunities to learn and iterate. I do feel sympathy for the teams from remote areas who have incredible travel hardships to deal with. But hopefully FIRST Canada and our community can come up with solutions to help these teams be sustainable in our new model.

You know, there's really nothing like seeing someone take an overall cost increase and sell it as a cost savings. From my point of view, there's a cost increase of $33,500 CAD in registration fees. I think it would be more fair to say that the cost of registration for a second play has dramatically decreased, but that second play is now mandatory. Before you had around 60 teams go for a second play (I don't know how many may have played more than 2, but lets assume none did for a minute), which means 77 teams did not go for a second play.

My question for those 77 teams is... why not? Was is registration cost alone? Total cost including travel? Time out of school/work? Lack of dedication/desire? For those 77 teams, does this change in pricing structure and event locations eliminate their reason for not attending two events, or cause them more headaches than they previously had?

The simple fact is, a change like this does make competition cheaper for some teams... but it also makes it more expensive for others. Are those others prepared for the additional fundraising needed?