California District Proposal

[Link07]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Maybe someone in another district could enlighten the conversation, but I am not sure that the pits need to be strictly a second gym? I've been to multiple unofficial FRC events where something like a cafeteria/MPR was used as a decent pit space. Maybe that could open up some more options in SoCal (and SD specifically).

Off the top of my head, MAR Mt. Olive uses the cafeteria for the pits.

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Hopefully you got to read in the proposal a bit on the venue needs for a 40 team district event (including stands for 1200 people, square footage for field and pits, etc). Maybe someone in another district could enlighten the conversation, but I am not sure that the pits need to be strictly a second gym? I've been to multiple unofficial FRC events where something like a cafeteria/MPR was used as a decent pit space. Maybe that could open up some more options in SoCal (and SD specifically).

In NE:

North Shore and Rhode Island were held in field houses where everything fit in the one space. Granite State had pits in a cafeteria. I am not familiar with any of the other high school venues. While not a high school, WPI has pits in some weird room that I don't what to call, but is a great example of creative pit layouts. They really crammed pits in every corner they could find for DCMP in 2015.

One other thing to consider for pits is if the school has any large halls or lobbies that they would allow pits in. Even if there isn't enough room for 40 pits, you may have just enough room that you can squeeze the rest in the main gym.

[ddg258]

Aloha from Maui, I'm the lead mentor for team 3882 the Lunas out of Lahainaluna HS on Maui. We have been to San Diego in 2016 and Los Angeles in 2015 and really enjoyed ourselves at both regionals. Thank you to the event crews and volunteers. We will be sad if California goes to districts, but I understand the reasons. We have figured out that playing in 2 regionals is definitely a plus for improving our program, so I see the rational behind districts allowing more matches. Unfortunately for us travel is our biggest challenge $$, even our home regional is on another island, Oahu, and we need to fly there, hotel cost etc.. California is our closest regional opportunity other than Oahu.

[kaliken]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Very fair concerns.

In a quick count, I tallied ~7 SoCal teams at CVR, out of 49. It is definitely a primarily NorCal event (confirmed by team distribution map from 2014)

I think SoCal will depend on Vegas/Arizona regardless until Districts happen. And, luckily, both of these areas appear to be strong and/or growing (I've been particularly impressed with AZ in the past few years).

Once Districts are established, the state will likely be split in half anyway, with only a few teams traveling for inter-district play. It is the natural progression to the model of a High School sport.

Why could this roll-out be beneficial to both regions? I hear so much doubt and misinformation surrounding districts in CA. It's almost like 1/2 of FRC hasn't made the switch already and disproved many of the concerns that get recycled almost daily. If half the state can go to districts in 2018, then maybe that opens the door for the other half to come in as soon as the following year. Showing what is possible is part of garnering support of people that would be hesitant to embrace change otherwise.

From my perspective, it could very well be a win-win. Believe me, I am pushing for this because I want all FRC teams, particularly in CA, to be more sustainable, more successful, and more inspirational.

Maybe it is less of a "Goodbye" and more of a "See you on the other side"?

-Mike

While I agree historically CVR is more NoCal teams, if I remember CVR was on the same weekend as the Long Beach Regional this year, and I think the week before in 2015. So you may have missed out on a lot of potential So.Cal teams these year just due to scheduling issues. Typically on my team we are not a fan of back to back events as its a burden on iteration plus it is hard for our students to take consecutive weeks off.


294 attended CVR in 2013 as it was on an advantageous weekend. We found that its really was not a hard drive or trip. The venue we thought was great and we would most definitely be willing to go back. In our regional trade space CVR is always in there just as long as we have enough separation from our "home" event of Los Angeles.

Without speaking for all the rest of them mentors on my team. I can see lots of pros/cons for Districts. We regularly compete in Long Beach so seeing 60+ teams is very normal to us. Holding the event in the arena can be a very special memory for most students on not only our team but also teams that have never gone to Champs. Keeping the regionals to have a "larger" feel can not only have tremendous inspirational effects but it also puts on a "great show" for our local sponsors. Often times when we invite our sponsors having them see an arena filled up usually gets them realizing the scope of the program that I am afraid may not be seen at the district event level.

I am not saying the district event cannot have the same effect, its just one of the things having regionals has going for it.

For me, Districts has to be the way to go for the future. We are already playing half of our Regionals in High school Gyms. From Inland Empire, to OC to CVR our 2nd regional is essentially a district event. So not only do we get limited to 8 matches at a 60+ regional but we also are paying a regional fee for essentially a district event. Man the worst $/match out there!

The crews who have put on I.E. OC and the other smaller regionals have all done a fantastic job and we have always enjoyed playing at those venues. The Orange county regional this year was a smashing success and we really look forward to coming back. Its just just a bummer to be spending the same amount for essentially what the rest of FRC would call a district event.

I have only quickly scanned the document but is very well written. I did notice that the South Bay (LA) area is an ideal location as well for a district. It looks like EricH mentioned that his team had looked at the venues. At 294 some of the mentors have talked(mainly whispered) that there has to be a school around here that has a chance. We would need to explore the requirements more carefully so thanks for helping us outline what is needed. But most important would be getting school buy-in and understanding how the gyms get booked. Our schools are so sports dominated that typically the gyms are constantly being used from girls volleyball to deep CIF boys/girls basketball championship runs.

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Hopefully you got to read in the proposal a bit on the venue needs for a 40 team district event (including stands for 1200 people, square footage for field and pits, etc). Maybe someone in another district could enlighten the conversation, but I am not sure that the pits need to be strictly a second gym? I've been to multiple unofficial FRC events where something like a cafeteria/MPR was used as a decent pit space. Maybe that could open up some more options in SoCal (and SD specifically).

-Mike

FIM Escanaba uses part of the cafeteria for approx 10 pits and a small practice gym for approx 30 pits and the practice field. FIM LSSU used the hockey arena for pits and the basketball arena for the field.

Many people mention using two gyms because many schools have two gyms separated by a hallway which makes for a convenient arrangement. But, it is not an absolute rule by any means.

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by EricH

and the main community college which would have space (two gyms, plus theater) but it's a community college...

That sounds great. What's wrong with a community college?

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Hallry

That sounds great. What's wrong with a community college?

That threw me off as well.

The Ventura regional is held in their community college.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

That threw me off as well.

The Ventura regional is held in their community college.

Well we wouldn't want kids thinking that community college is an acceptable route to go...

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by kaliken

I have only quickly scanned the document but is very well written. I did notice that the South Bay (LA) area is an ideal location as well for a district. It looks like EricH mentioned that his team had looked at the venues. At 294 some of the mentors have talked(mainly whispered) that there has to be a school around here that has a chance. We would need to explore the requirements more carefully so thanks for helping us outline what is needed. But most important would be getting school buy-in and understanding how the gyms get booked. Our schools are so sports dominated that typically the gyms are constantly being used from girls volleyball to deep CIF boys/girls basketball championship runs.

Thank you for all of your feedback regarding CVR, and please do investigate possible venues! As some other posters have noted, it looks like we can be flexible with Pit locations if need be, so two gyms right next to each other likely is not a "hard" requirement, just like parking spots are not a hard requirement. I think 1200 spectator seating, and some of the other points in criteria, would be "hard" requirements though.

It is encouraging to see so much community engagement into the proposal. I'm planning a few revisions to update some numbers and make some other misc. corrections. Let me know if you see anything else worth updating/adding!

-Mike

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by EricH

NE events are how far apart again, by time? See, out here, that's a minimum of 2 events that are a 2-hour drive away (overnight stay), and that's for someone in the middle of the four SoCal ones. In NE, I'd imagine that there's a bit more events that are closer than that, so it's a fair bit easier to do more events.

This has been one of the biggest barriers to me being more involved in California. I used to do at least three events per season in New England, even before we switched to districts there. I could usually drive to 2-3 events from my house, my parents' house, or a friend's house, meaning I wouldn't need a hotel.

Now in California the closest event is over 90 miles (over 2 hours) from where I live, which means I need to pay for several nights at a hotel in an expensive area and take even more time off from work. In 2015, I took a lot of time off from work and paid a lot out of pocket to volunteer at three events in California and Nevada. In 2016, between some major deadlines at work and dealing with a family emergency, I couldn't even make it to a single FRC regional in California.

[jpetito]

Hi Liam Fay of W.A.R. Lords- Your point two that the "…regional level ambience…" is the high point of a kid's FRC career is germane-- the consistently winning teams do see the points gathering thing as a stepping stone. The teams working out of the janitor's closet on the cafeteria benches in January want to go to something Big, Big, to make all their sacrifices and unplesantnesses worthwhile. What with our fabulous weather, Jan/Feb on the cafe benches still means you're working your robot in mittens and ushankas. Sponsors walk into 5k people at a Regional, shouting and screaming, get impressed and write checks.

EricH- Add to the volunteer conundrum another, which may be a Left Coast mentality: Some school site admin are totally bought into understanding what this kind of education means, and give their sites to teams for only janitorial fees. The majority (anecdotal, but research nonetheless) look at the rolling junk on the playing floor and only see rolling junk; they've an inability to break out of intellectual tunnel they've made for themselves to grasp what's going on. * They are happy to have a kid cite FRC on the college app, but care little for the day to day wrenching and welding and bandaids. Thus kids and mentors delegated to working out of janitor's closets or having to lease space in the community (at market rates).

Hi Michael C- thanks for putting your time in on this- it's a set of thoughtful pieces. On GoogleEarth, take a look at Torrance South High School- we've a great gym, a second Vball gym maybe for pits, but the access is up stairs and through narrow passageways, seeing as how the place was built in the early 60's (and despite rebuilds to make us Section 504 compatible). The California architects expect kids to play outside most of the year and give no thought to fieldhouse size venues and secondary gyms.

------

Pits have a dynamic that gets fragmented if you put four teams here, eight over there, a couple next to the playing field, some in some other building. We want teams to rub shoulders and be Graciously Professional while so doing, with veterans pulling up the newbies.

Perspective at the doer level is all. The teacher/mentor/parent/volunteer pool is devoted. I/we want kids to get out of school and be a success at whatever. I'd invite District proponents to play a season with us to get a grasp of the perspective (great perspective smurfgirl!), and fit your good ideas into our socioeconomic/cultural/geographic template--good minds solve big problems--I admit to a crushed viewpoint and tunnel vision as much as the next guy/gal, and like critiques from our vision point.

Joe Petito
LA Robotics

* See the discussion on Quality by Persig: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

[FarmerJohn]

Originally Posted by jpetito

Hi Liam Fay of W.A.R. Lords- Your point two that the "…regional level ambiance…" is the high point of a kid's FRC career is germane-- the consistently winning teams do see the points gathering thing as a stepping stone. The teams working out of the janitor's closet on the cafeteria benches in January want to go to something Big, Big, to make all their sacrifices and unplesantnesses worthwhile. What with our fabulous weather, Jan/Feb on the cafe benches still means you're working your robot in mittens and ushankas. Sponsors walk into 5k people at a Regional, shouting and screaming, get impressed and write checks.

Gonna be honest here, if a team is working out of a closet, I don't think a big flashy venue is gonna matter to them more than getting the robot they worked on for 6 weeks functioning, and it doesn't take a genius to know that more opportunities to play is gonna help you improve more than big event ambiance will. Do you really care about the experience of the teams that don't have much to work with? Give them more chances to get better and make something of their season. Big flashy lights don't help when you're 0-10 at your only event and your season just finished. That's why some teams go home early, and why others don't come back next year.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

Gonna be honest here, if a team is working out of a closet, I don't think a big flashy venue is gonna matter to them more than getting the robot they worked on for 6 weeks functioning, and it doesn't take a genius to know that more opportunities to play is gonna help you improve more than big event ambiance will. Do you really care about the experience of the teams that don't have much to work with? Give them more chances to get better and make something of their season. Big flashy lights don't help when you're 0-10 at your only event and your season just finished. That's why some teams go home early, and why others don't come back next year.

Having spent hard time on one such previously hole-in-the-wall team, I wholeheartedly agree. The flash of the regional provides very little motivation--none to me as a student--especially given how short-lived it is. When we worked in a barn, anywhere was up in terms of location. The great part is getting play time with other teams and, eventually, hopefully succeeding at something that lasts (a record of playing Saturday or winning an award). This is much more likely at smaller districts events with more play time and smaller competitive fields. Having now played in districts, we've also found that those titles, e.g. "Innovation Award Winner" or "quarterfinalist", etc, are far more interesting to sponsors (and recruits, and us) than the flash of any event "we played" at. People don't probe about the size of the field when you show them a trophy. Moreover, having more events via districts has helped more potential funders and other outsiders show up at one.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by jpetito

Sponsors walk into 5k people at a Regional, shouting and screaming, get impressed and write checks.

Sponsors love hearing about districts especially when their $5k = more matches = more time on the field = more time for iteration = more success.

I remember when one of our core sponsors a few years back asked "What are districts and how do we get in them?"

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by jpetito

Hi Liam Fay of W.A.R. Lords- Your point two that the "…regional level ambience…" is the high point of a kid's FRC career is germane-- the consistently winning teams do see the points gathering thing as a stepping stone. The teams working out of the janitor's closet on the cafeteria benches in January want to go to something Big, Big, to make all their sacrifices and unplesantnesses worthwhile. What with our fabulous weather, Jan/Feb on the cafe benches still means you're working your robot in mittens and ushankas. Sponsors walk into 5k people at a Regional, shouting and screaming, get impressed and write checks.

Sponsors can walk into a lot of people at District Championship events, see them shouting and screaming, get impressed, and write checks. They can also go to at least twice as many events as previously offered in the area if the shouting and screaming isn't for them.

Originally Posted by jpetito

EricH- Add to the volunteer conundrum another, which may be a Left Coast mentality: Some school site admin are totally bought into understanding what this kind of education means, and give their sites to teams for only janitorial fees. The majority (anecdotal, but research nonetheless) look at the rolling junk on the playing floor and only see rolling junk; they've an inability to break out of intellectual tunnel they've made for themselves to grasp what's going on. * They are happy to have a kid cite FRC on the college app, but care little for the day to day wrenching and welding and bandaids. Thus kids and mentors delegated to working out of janitor's closets or having to lease space in the community (at market rates).

This is a pretty good argument for districts.

Originally Posted by jpetito

Pits have a dynamic that gets fragmented if you put four teams here, eight over there, a couple next to the playing field, some in some other building. We want teams to rub shoulders and be Graciously Professional while so doing, with veterans pulling up the newbies.

Now I have heard it all, I think. This was an existing problem at a regional in southern California.

Originally Posted by jpetito

Perspective at the doer level is all. The teacher/mentor/parent/volunteer pool is devoted. I/we want kids to get out of school and be a success at whatever. I'd invite District proponents to play a season with us to get a grasp of the perspective (great perspective smurfgirl!), and fit your good ideas into our socioeconomic/cultural/geographic template--good minds solve big problems--I admit to a crushed viewpoint and tunnel vision as much as the next guy/gal, and like critiques from our vision point.

That sounds like a great offer! I'd love to take 422 to San Diego or Anaheim. Unfortunately the regionals in California are packed with teams from the state so much already that it is really hard to get out there and play a season with you. SoCal teams are occasionally shipped off to Nevada or Arizona for a second play; I imagine district model teams will not fare much better.