California District Proposal

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by EricH

NE events are how far apart again, by time? See, out here, that's a minimum of 2 events that are a 2-hour drive away (overnight stay), and that's for someone in the middle of the four SoCal ones. In NE, I'd imagine that there's a bit more events that are closer than that, so it's a fair bit easier to do more events.

This has been one of the biggest barriers to me being more involved in California. I used to do at least three events per season in New England, even before we switched to districts there. I could usually drive to 2-3 events from my house, my parents' house, or a friend's house, meaning I wouldn't need a hotel.

Now in California the closest event is over 90 miles (over 2 hours) from where I live, which means I need to pay for several nights at a hotel in an expensive area and take even more time off from work. In 2015, I took a lot of time off from work and paid a lot out of pocket to volunteer at three events in California and Nevada. In 2016, between some major deadlines at work and dealing with a family emergency, I couldn't even make it to a single FRC regional in California.

[jpetito]

Hi Liam Fay of W.A.R. Lords- Your point two that the "…regional level ambience…" is the high point of a kid's FRC career is germane-- the consistently winning teams do see the points gathering thing as a stepping stone. The teams working out of the janitor's closet on the cafeteria benches in January want to go to something Big, Big, to make all their sacrifices and unplesantnesses worthwhile. What with our fabulous weather, Jan/Feb on the cafe benches still means you're working your robot in mittens and ushankas. Sponsors walk into 5k people at a Regional, shouting and screaming, get impressed and write checks.

EricH- Add to the volunteer conundrum another, which may be a Left Coast mentality: Some school site admin are totally bought into understanding what this kind of education means, and give their sites to teams for only janitorial fees. The majority (anecdotal, but research nonetheless) look at the rolling junk on the playing floor and only see rolling junk; they've an inability to break out of intellectual tunnel they've made for themselves to grasp what's going on. * They are happy to have a kid cite FRC on the college app, but care little for the day to day wrenching and welding and bandaids. Thus kids and mentors delegated to working out of janitor's closets or having to lease space in the community (at market rates).

Hi Michael C- thanks for putting your time in on this- it's a set of thoughtful pieces. On GoogleEarth, take a look at Torrance South High School- we've a great gym, a second Vball gym maybe for pits, but the access is up stairs and through narrow passageways, seeing as how the place was built in the early 60's (and despite rebuilds to make us Section 504 compatible). The California architects expect kids to play outside most of the year and give no thought to fieldhouse size venues and secondary gyms.

------

Pits have a dynamic that gets fragmented if you put four teams here, eight over there, a couple next to the playing field, some in some other building. We want teams to rub shoulders and be Graciously Professional while so doing, with veterans pulling up the newbies.

Perspective at the doer level is all. The teacher/mentor/parent/volunteer pool is devoted. I/we want kids to get out of school and be a success at whatever. I'd invite District proponents to play a season with us to get a grasp of the perspective (great perspective smurfgirl!), and fit your good ideas into our socioeconomic/cultural/geographic template--good minds solve big problems--I admit to a crushed viewpoint and tunnel vision as much as the next guy/gal, and like critiques from our vision point.

Joe Petito
LA Robotics

* See the discussion on Quality by Persig: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

[FarmerJohn]

Originally Posted by jpetito

Hi Liam Fay of W.A.R. Lords- Your point two that the "…regional level ambiance…" is the high point of a kid's FRC career is germane-- the consistently winning teams do see the points gathering thing as a stepping stone. The teams working out of the janitor's closet on the cafeteria benches in January want to go to something Big, Big, to make all their sacrifices and unplesantnesses worthwhile. What with our fabulous weather, Jan/Feb on the cafe benches still means you're working your robot in mittens and ushankas. Sponsors walk into 5k people at a Regional, shouting and screaming, get impressed and write checks.

Gonna be honest here, if a team is working out of a closet, I don't think a big flashy venue is gonna matter to them more than getting the robot they worked on for 6 weeks functioning, and it doesn't take a genius to know that more opportunities to play is gonna help you improve more than big event ambiance will. Do you really care about the experience of the teams that don't have much to work with? Give them more chances to get better and make something of their season. Big flashy lights don't help when you're 0-10 at your only event and your season just finished. That's why some teams go home early, and why others don't come back next year.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

Gonna be honest here, if a team is working out of a closet, I don't think a big flashy venue is gonna matter to them more than getting the robot they worked on for 6 weeks functioning, and it doesn't take a genius to know that more opportunities to play is gonna help you improve more than big event ambiance will. Do you really care about the experience of the teams that don't have much to work with? Give them more chances to get better and make something of their season. Big flashy lights don't help when you're 0-10 at your only event and your season just finished. That's why some teams go home early, and why others don't come back next year.

Having spent hard time on one such previously hole-in-the-wall team, I wholeheartedly agree. The flash of the regional provides very little motivation--none to me as a student--especially given how short-lived it is. When we worked in a barn, anywhere was up in terms of location. The great part is getting play time with other teams and, eventually, hopefully succeeding at something that lasts (a record of playing Saturday or winning an award). This is much more likely at smaller districts events with more play time and smaller competitive fields. Having now played in districts, we've also found that those titles, e.g. "Innovation Award Winner" or "quarterfinalist", etc, are far more interesting to sponsors (and recruits, and us) than the flash of any event "we played" at. People don't probe about the size of the field when you show them a trophy. Moreover, having more events via districts has helped more potential funders and other outsiders show up at one.

[jpetito]

Good points all John. Much to be said for that.

[Ed Law]

I don't think there is too much I can add here that was not already covered.

1) 40 teams in a high school gym can be as loud if not louder than in a big arena with 60 teams.

2) I like how close the bleachers in a high school gym are to the playing field. You are close to the action from most seats.

3) My experience is there are a lot of different types of sponsors. I have not run across any sponsors that support teams to write a check because they were impressed with the venue. There are sponsors who cared that your robot does reasonably well because their name is on it. There are sponsors who cared that your team is involved in the community. There are quite a few sponsors who cared that the students learned something that they wouldn't have learned if not for FIRST Robotics. When they hear that the program mimics real world engineering with opportunities to iterate and improve and ultimately succeed, that's when they open their checkbook. That is what district model gives students. 8-10 matches and out for the season is not inspiring no matter how great the venue is.

4) District championship is the same experience as regionals except the robots are more competitive in general so the matches are usually more exciting.

5) I like district events in a high school because you always feel welcome. Most of the time, the high school principal or even school district superintendent is there. They are proud of their school and they want you to have a good experience. Some schools have their cheerleading squad kick things off. Some have their band or singing group for national anthem. They go out of their way to inconvenient their students on Friday to give you the cafeteria, parking and other space. You can bring in your own food or order in food that is much better and more economical than at the regionals that I have attended. Most of what I said here is true for Kettering and other district events at college campus in Michigan also.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by jpetito

Sponsors walk into 5k people at a Regional, shouting and screaming, get impressed and write checks.

Sponsors love hearing about districts especially when their $5k = more matches = more time on the field = more time for iteration = more success.

I remember when one of our core sponsors a few years back asked "What are districts and how do we get in them?"

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by jpetito

Hi Liam Fay of W.A.R. Lords- Your point two that the "…regional level ambience…" is the high point of a kid's FRC career is germane-- the consistently winning teams do see the points gathering thing as a stepping stone. The teams working out of the janitor's closet on the cafeteria benches in January want to go to something Big, Big, to make all their sacrifices and unplesantnesses worthwhile. What with our fabulous weather, Jan/Feb on the cafe benches still means you're working your robot in mittens and ushankas. Sponsors walk into 5k people at a Regional, shouting and screaming, get impressed and write checks.

Sponsors can walk into a lot of people at District Championship events, see them shouting and screaming, get impressed, and write checks. They can also go to at least twice as many events as previously offered in the area if the shouting and screaming isn't for them.

Originally Posted by jpetito

EricH- Add to the volunteer conundrum another, which may be a Left Coast mentality: Some school site admin are totally bought into understanding what this kind of education means, and give their sites to teams for only janitorial fees. The majority (anecdotal, but research nonetheless) look at the rolling junk on the playing floor and only see rolling junk; they've an inability to break out of intellectual tunnel they've made for themselves to grasp what's going on. * They are happy to have a kid cite FRC on the college app, but care little for the day to day wrenching and welding and bandaids. Thus kids and mentors delegated to working out of janitor's closets or having to lease space in the community (at market rates).

This is a pretty good argument for districts.

Originally Posted by jpetito

Pits have a dynamic that gets fragmented if you put four teams here, eight over there, a couple next to the playing field, some in some other building. We want teams to rub shoulders and be Graciously Professional while so doing, with veterans pulling up the newbies.

Now I have heard it all, I think. This was an existing problem at a regional in southern California.

Originally Posted by jpetito

Perspective at the doer level is all. The teacher/mentor/parent/volunteer pool is devoted. I/we want kids to get out of school and be a success at whatever. I'd invite District proponents to play a season with us to get a grasp of the perspective (great perspective smurfgirl!), and fit your good ideas into our socioeconomic/cultural/geographic template--good minds solve big problems--I admit to a crushed viewpoint and tunnel vision as much as the next guy/gal, and like critiques from our vision point.

That sounds like a great offer! I'd love to take 422 to San Diego or Anaheim. Unfortunately the regionals in California are packed with teams from the state so much already that it is really hard to get out there and play a season with you. SoCal teams are occasionally shipped off to Nevada or Arizona for a second play; I imagine district model teams will not fare much better.

[bkahl]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

That sounds like a great offer! I'd love to take 422 to San Diego or Anaheim. Unfortunately the regionals in California are packed with teams from the state so much already that it is really hard to get out there and play a season with you. SoCal teams are occasionally shipped off to Nevada or Arizona for a second play; I imagine district model teams will not fare much better.

Can Confirm-

A short-lived attempt to get 125 into San Diego this year was met with a response along the lines of "we don't even have enough space for California teams..."

We, too, "got shipped" to Arizona (Which was a great event, don't get me wrong. We just wanted to play with robots outside...)

[EricH]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Now I have heard it all, I think. This was an existing problem at a regional in southern California.

Are you sure? L.A. hasn't had that, ever. Ventura is all in one room (albeit, with some spread for "peripheral" parts of the pit). OC is practically all one room (slight overflow to odd corners of said room); IE same thing the last couple years it existed. Not quite sure about San Diego but in the venue this year it was one area. A couple of times offseasons have dealt with that particular problem, but not often.


With respect to the "community college" statement: This particular community college tends to be extremely busy (except when not in session). I'm also not quite sure on the layout of where the key venues might end up; they're (generally) on the same path, but cover is spotty. (You know, it does rain down here on occasion...typically in February and March.) Though if something WAS hosted there, something breaks and the machine shop is under a hundred yards away, fully equipped, and at least one of those instructors "GETS IT" with FRC.

[Pauline Tasci]

Originally Posted by EricH

Are you sure? L.A. hasn't had that, ever. Ventura is all in one room (albeit, with some spread for "peripheral" parts of the pit). OC is practically all one room (slight overflow to odd corners of said room); IE same thing the last couple years it existed. Not quite sure about San Diego but in the venue this year it was one area. A couple of times offseasons have dealt with that particular problem, but not often.

=

The last year IE existed (2015) we had to run a tent for teams to transport their robots from the pits the the arena because the gyms were farther apart.
While the pits were in one location, I think Wil's comment pertained to that layout.
The tents were not in the plan, no one really expected there to be rain, but mad credit to the IE committee for having a back up plan.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by jpetito

Hi Liam Fay of W.A.R. Lords- Your point two that the "…regional level ambience…" is the high point of a kid's FRC career is germane-- the consistently winning teams do see the points gathering thing as a stepping stone. The teams working out of the janitor's closet on the cafeteria benches in January want to go to something Big, Big, to make all their sacrifices and unplesantnesses worthwhile. What with our fabulous weather, Jan/Feb on the cafe benches still means you're working your robot in mittens and ushankas. Sponsors walk into 5k people at a Regional, shouting and screaming, get impressed and write checks.

EricH- Add to the volunteer conundrum another, which may be a Left Coast mentality: Some school site admin are totally bought into understanding what this kind of education means, and give their sites to teams for only janitorial fees. The majority (anecdotal, but research nonetheless) look at the rolling junk on the playing floor and only see rolling junk; they've an inability to break out of intellectual tunnel they've made for themselves to grasp what's going on. * They are happy to have a kid cite FRC on the college app, but care little for the day to day wrenching and welding and bandaids. Thus kids and mentors delegated to working out of janitor's closets or having to lease space in the community (at market rates).

Hi Michael C- thanks for putting your time in on this- it's a set of thoughtful pieces. On GoogleEarth, take a look at Torrance South High School- we've a great gym, a second Vball gym maybe for pits, but the access is up stairs and through narrow passageways, seeing as how the place was built in the early 60's (and despite rebuilds to make us Section 504 compatible). The California architects expect kids to play outside most of the year and give no thought to fieldhouse size venues and secondary gyms.

------

Pits have a dynamic that gets fragmented if you put four teams here, eight over there, a couple next to the playing field, some in some other building. We want teams to rub shoulders and be Graciously Professional while so doing, with veterans pulling up the newbies.

Perspective at the doer level is all. The teacher/mentor/parent/volunteer pool is devoted. I/we want kids to get out of school and be a success at whatever. I'd invite District proponents to play a season with us to get a grasp of the perspective (great perspective smurfgirl!), and fit your good ideas into our socioeconomic/cultural/geographic template--good minds solve big problems--I admit to a crushed viewpoint and tunnel vision as much as the next guy/gal, and like critiques from our vision point.

Joe Petito
LA Robotics

* See the discussion on Quality by Persig: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

Joe,

Thanks for all of your feedback. A few of my observations to your points:

1. Sponsors want flashy events: I do not know of these proposed "see us waste 5k on 8 matches in an oversized venue and write a check" sponsors you seem to speak of. We have a 150k budget, and all of our corporate sponsorships are developed and finalized outside of competitions. The only sponsor that visited our team at competition last year was NVIDIA, but they are pretty deep in FRC already. Also, I agree with everything Ed Law said.

2. School Admins: For the past three years, CCC (NorCal Offseason) has moved to three different HS here in the Sac area. Not because that is all we could find each year, but because all three schools want to host the event, and we are spreading the event out to benefit more communities. Your anecdotal evidence is fine, but does not 100% line up with the majority of areas already in districts that seem to be able to get high schools to host events.

3. Venues: There are many HS in California. I know we can get creative and make it work. Its a matter of intelligence over convenience.

As an FYI, both Sacramento and SVR already have split pits. Both events have 12-16 teams in a secondary area in order to support the massive 60+ team rosters. So going down to a 40 team event with the same pit split up seems entirely reasonable. No one is advocating for the pits to be in 4+ different places, I'd rather not tolerate that sort of hyperbole in this discussion.

All,

Currently, California is spending over $1 Million Dollars on 7 regional events. We can run 18 events for almost half the price in our first year of switching, with additional savings in subsequent years. I am not proud of the amount of money in California that goes to unnecessary venue, A/V, union and catering charges. I want us to do better, to use our event sponsor's money more effectively to support the STEM revolution we are all a part of.

Joe, we have a ton of amazing minds in California, I totally agree with you. I'd like to put that brain power into solving the problems of "how do we make this happen?"

Keep the conversation going everyone.

Request: Could someone forward me contact info for Volunteer Coordinators for the various RPC's in CA?

I currently just have CVR and Sac contacts.

Thanks!

-Mike

[Chris is me]

I just want to add one quick note to this discussion, having participated in regionals for 7 years and then districts for 1 year now. People talk about the quality of district events versus regionals as if you have to give up the regional feel to do districts. That really isn't true. For one thing, the District Championships tend to have either the same or better production value compared to a regional. So you still have that 60 team event with thousands of screaming kids in a stadium to change lives and invite sponsors to and stuff. That doesn't go away.

And some district events feel basically identical to small regionals anyway. District events at colleges or community colleges are pretty much the same as a regional event at a college or community college. If you walked into the Rhode Island District Event and the Tech Valley Regional, the only immediately noticeable difference is that Tech Valley has the Show Ready lighting.

Even at the high school gym level, sponsors are impressed by district events. The company I work for sends some volunteers to the local district competitions regularly, and they certainly aren't turned off by the high school feel. They see kids and engineers working side by side on machines and playing matches with robots. That's cool no matter how you dress it up.

Districts are worth it. You can make the events as snazzy and fancy as you want to - no one's forcing you to give anything up in the District system - but I also think you're overstating the necessity of every event being a 60+ team event in a big stadium with fancy lights. You're also ignoring the current reality that many regionals are already run "like districts", and those kids aren't walking away any less inspired.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

People talk about the quality of district events versus regionals as if you have to give up the regional feel to do districts. That really isn't true. For one thing, the District Championships tend to have either the same or better production value compared to a regional.

This definitely has not been the case in MAR since 2013. In 2012, Show Ready was still involved in the MAR DCMP (which was then hosted at a former Philadelphia regional location). From 2013 onwards, the venue was shifted to a more affordable venue and the production value was dropped significantly. The first year there weren't even drapes separating the field and pit areas, which gave it a distinctly "off-season/district event" feel. In subsequent years, low canopy drapes were added (providing separation at field level, but not from the stands), but house lighting and projection remained wanting.

While MAR has very valid motivations for the cost savings in terms of DCMP venue selection and production costs, it still leaves a lot to be desired from a production value standpoint. MAR is not necessarily representative of how a California district championship event(s) would be run, but it does show the possibility for reduced production quality even at a DCMP event.

(edit, I now see that this thread has individuals expressing similar concerns with the FiM and PCH DCMP events' production values)

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

While MAR has very valid motivations for the cost savings in terms of DCMP venue selection and production costs, it still leaves a lot to be desired from a production value standpoint. MAR is not necessarily representative of how a California district championship event(s) would be run, but it does show the possibility for reduced production quality even at a DCMP event.

I'm really not concerned about the production quality of whatever the CA state champ(s) would be.

With the amount of ego mixed with talent out here, I'm certain our state champ(s) will be quite a spectacle compared to all current CA regionals and current District Champs events.