California District Proposal

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by Ben Martin

One additional point I haven't seen brought up that I think is worth mentioning--districts definitely promote having an 'identity' for the region. From my experience, teams and event staff have been generally more invested in both the competitive success and event experience of all teams at the event, maybe because we play each other much more frequently or we are labeled as being from a particular region.

Not only that, but also much more of a community. You become a lot closer with other teams when you see them 3 times a year versus once.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Ego and talent are awesome, but if your 501c(3) decides to invest money in areas other than production/venue selection, it's a moot point. Unless you're purely talking about the on-field robot performance creating the spectacle?

As far as I am aware, the reason you have and will likely continue to see higher quality production at the NE, PNW, and Chesapeake championships are because it is something that the powers that be can prioritize without having to make a trade-off they would deem unfavorable. As long as Lehigh is free and not other comparable or better venue is free in MAR, MAR will continue to get the CMP it gets. FiM won't tell you this themselves but if it wasn't considered a safety hazard, the FTAs would probably be transporting the fields across the state via a series of rickshaws just to save money. The switch to districts in Michigan and the Mid-Atlantic were not ones made primarily out of a desire to evolve and grow the region, but an imperative to keep the regions financially solvent in the short and long term. NE, PNW, and Chesapeake did not have an evolve or die mandate that MAR and FiM had.

PCH, NC, and Indiana each historically had one regional to their name (the 1 year stopgaps of the Crossroads Regional and the other Georgia event excluded). The model those three operate on for all intents and purposes are taking the money the old RPC could raise and are putting it across 5ish events of the same quality while trying to get favorable deals with venues and figure out parts of their states where they can get more investment into the program locally and in turn, statewide. In all seriousness, there are merits to an argument that small single-state districts are in the short term a very tenuous deal for teams and will require a lot of right moves on the chessboards to get bigger payoffs. An observation worth noting is that ISC had a very small chance to not actually award any points-based slots this year outside of the finalist captain and first pick. I think they got 1 more.

NE, PNW, and Chesapeake all are folding in 3+ very long standing and large regionals into one system (for NE, it was what, 5?) so it is probably fair to compare a potential California district system to these systems. While it is definitely true to say this for regionals, not all district systems are created equal either, it just so happens that environmental factors (venue availability, available funding sources) have a smaller impact when you have already torn down the barriers of massive financial overheads and limited roster spots at events.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by ASD20

Not only that, but also much more of a community. You become a lot closer with other teams when you see them 3 times a year versus once.

You only see the other teams in your area at season events? My team sees them at off-seasons, various community out-reach events, training events, organized social events... a dozen times or so each year, and we aren't in districts!

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

You only see the other teams in your area at season events? My team sees them at off-seasons, various community out-reach events, training events, organized social events... a dozen times or so each year, and we aren't in districts!

All of the events you list have 40+ teams consistently?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

3. Venues: There are many HS in California. I know we can get creative and make it work. Its a matter of intelligence over convenience.

Mike, just to be blunt here: when is the last time you were down this way, other than IE 2014?

Yes, there are many HS in CA. There have to be, because of all the people (and all the HS students). But, the biggest question is this:

Of all those HS, how many are able to fit a 40-team FRC event? I would argue that maybe half of them would have the capability just on the "covered open space" requirement--enough space within reasonable proximity for fields and pits. Then you can rule out a few more on the seating requirements--witness said IE 2014 (seating was extremely tight, from what I could see--and so was everything else; they needed more space). Call it a third of the HS's in SoCal would be workable with some minor tweaking and/or major schmoozing with the districts. Still quite a lot, but not as many as you might think.

For ready-to-go regional HS venues (that aren't already hosting), with local team(s) to get a quick manpower boost, I can think of maybe 1-3 offhand, depending on how split you want the pits, all of which have hosted a small-ish offseason. (Adding in a CC or two, that means that I can count 'em on one hand if barely.) For various compromises (lack of local teams, more separation of the pits/field, shorting the seating, or adjusting access), you can get a lot more, maybe up to 2/3 of the HS venues can make it work. The question becomes, how big of a compromise can you actually take before it's unworkable, and people let you know after the season?



Now, that being said, I think it's time to get creative--has anybody, anybody at all, ever tried to host an FRC event in a theater? As in, like, theater where plays are put on? I betcha that a gym-theater combo could do the trick--if they were close enough together and the stage was big enough. And I can think of a couple of those down here that might just barely be workable... Seating, comfy; all seats have good view; plenty of room backstage for queuing... Just need a covered walkway or bagged robots if it's a bit rainy.

And for some reason, folks down here seem to be starting to emphasize the arts a little bit...

[Kevin Sheridan]

Originally Posted by EricH

Now, that being said, I think it's time to get creative--has anybody, anybody at all, ever tried to host an FRC event in a theater? As in, like, theater where plays are put on? I betcha that a gym-theater combo could do the trick--if they were close enough together and the stage was big enough. And I can think of a couple of those down here that might just barely be workable... Seating, comfy; all seats have good view; plenty of room backstage for queuing... Just need a covered walkway or bagged robots if it's a bit rainy.

And for some reason, folks down here seem to be starting to emphasize the arts a little bit...

Not enough seats. My high school built a 31,000 square foot theater recently but the seating capacity is only 492 people.

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by EricH

Now, that being said, I think it's time to get creative--has anybody, anybody at all, ever tried to host an FRC event in a theater? As in, like, theater where plays are put on?

I've seen FLL in a small lecture hall. One off-season in Duluth, MN, (GGGT) had a bit of practice space on a theater stage in 2014.

Originally Posted by Kevin Sheridan

Not enough seats. My high school built a 31,000 square foot theater recently but the seating capacity is only 492 people.

My university has an 80,000 sq ft theater with 1067 seats and a stage that might be just barely big enough. And I'm not even sure where pits could go.

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by EricH

Now, that being said, I think it's time to get creative--has anybody, anybody at all, ever tried to host an FRC event in a theater? As in, like, theater where plays are put on? I betcha that a gym-theater combo could do the trick--if they were close enough together and the stage was big enough. And I can think of a couple of those down here that might just barely be workable... Seating, comfy; all seats have good view; plenty of room backstage for queuing... Just need a covered walkway or bagged robots if it's a bit rainy.

Granite State actually put their practice field on the stage in their auditorium. I think an auditorium might be useful for some of those things that aren't too large, but you just can't squeeze in elsewhere. Ex: Practice field, volunteer lounge, table displays, FLL demos. If it has large stage and is close enough, it might even be a decent place to put some pits.

Also, if you are looking for space/tools for a machine shop in a school that doesn't have a team, the drama club is a good place to check. A lot of schools (at least near me) have pretty decent shops that they use to build sets.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by ASD20

Not only that, but also much more of a community. You become a lot closer with other teams when you see them 3 times a year versus once.

Speak for yourself. If I have to see 1086 or 2363 at another event I'll probably burn my eyebrows.

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

You only see the other teams in your area at season events? My team sees them at off-seasons, various community out-reach events, training events, organized social events... a dozen times or so each year, and we aren't in districts!

I was only thinking in-season when I wrote that. However, while there are plenty of teams that we do see at all sorts of events, there are also quite a few that we only get to see in season. There are teams from several hours away in NH, RI, and ME that we have formed relationships with due to districts. If we were still in regionals, we probably would have never even met most of those teams because they had other regionals closer to them.

[Pauline Tasci]

Originally Posted by EricH

Of all those HS, how many are able to fit a 40-team FRC event? I would argue that maybe half of them would have the capability just on the "covered open space" requirement--enough space within reasonable proximity for fields and pits. Then you can rule out a few more on the seating requirements--witness said IE 2014 (seating was extremely tight, from what I could see--and so was everything else; they needed more space). Call it a third of the HS's in SoCal would be workable with some minor tweaking and/or major schmoozing with the districts. Still quite a lot, but not as many as you might think.

Hey Eric!
Have you taken a look at the list of so cal venues that were all layed out to be able to fit at least 40+ teams. And thats just schools we know as of now, there is room to grow.

Many of these schools were even looked at for possible OCR and beach blitz locations. When you get rid of the show ready trusses, you actually gain a lot of locations that have the space for great events.

[Pauline Tasci]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

You only see the other teams in your area at season events? My team sees them at off-seasons, various community out-reach events, training events, organized social events... a dozen times or so each year, and we aren't in districts!

Hm... but do you get to see how vastly those teams improved? Get to compete against a team that changed strategy, added features, and more for a chance to be the best?
Do you get to be inspired by designs to add to your next competitions?
You don't if you only see them once, maybe twice, a year at a large event. No one iterates for outreach events, no one gets inspired in the technical sense from a robot that hasn't seen a match in months.
You do if you get to compete at more events.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Pauline Tasci

Hey Eric!
Have you taken a look at the list of so cal venues that were all layed out to be able to fit at least 40+ teams. And thats just schools we know as of now, there is room to grow.

Many of these schools were even looked at for possible OCR and beach blitz locations. When you get rid of the show ready trusses, you actually gain a lot of locations that have the space for great events.

I have looked. Great, OC and northern San Diego is covered, and there's a couple possibilities in L.A.

Question: What percentage of "looked at" school locations is that? And, has anybody been looking in L.A. (and any other "holes") at other former offseason-event locations? (Might be worth contacting 599--they hosted the Classic for a while, but I can't speak for whether they'd be up for hosting an event these days.)


I've gotten a note from someone who's looked at a lot of venues that maybe a third--at the outside--of high schools in SoCal could actually host a regional.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by EricH

I have looked. Great, OC and northern San Diego is covered, and there's a couple possibilities in L.A.

Question: What percentage of "looked at" school locations is that? And, has anybody been looking in L.A. (and any other "holes") at other former offseason-event locations? (Might be worth contacting 599--they hosted the Classic for a while, but I can't speak for whether they'd be up for hosting an event these days.)


I've gotten a note from someone who's looked at a lot of venues that maybe a third--at the outside--of high schools in SoCal could actually host a regional.

Eric,

Step by step logic here would be really helpful. I'll take it question by question:

1. Do we agree that Northern California has proven to have a sufficient number of already-tested high school venues to support 6 district events in NorCal?

2. Does SoCal needs 9 to 10 district events, assuming 175 teams?

3. How many district events could be covered from the current list, and how many more options do you think we need in SoCal to be "relatively confident" (whatever that means to you)?

4. How many High Schools are in SoCal?

5. Divide that number by 3 (the magic number from your source), how many potential venues to host a district does that leave us with?

6. Does this seem like enough options?

Just like Mark Leon always said, "Do the Math, Save the World!"

-Mike

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Eric,

Step by step logic here would be really helpful. I'll take it question by question:

1. Do we agree that Northern California has proven to have a sufficient number of already-tested high school venues to support 6 district events in NorCal?

You're the NorCal expert. I'm not going to make any statement here.

2. Does SoCal needs 9 to 10 district events, assuming 175 teams?

3. How many district events could be covered from the current list, and how many more options do you think we need in SoCal to be "relatively confident" (whatever that means to you)?

Assuming 175 teams, 9. Assuming that no rookies crop up, which would probably put the count to 10.

That's actually rather dependent. There's at least one glaring hole in that list where there's maybe two spots that are going to be difficult (the colleges--trust me, I've got friends that go to one of 'em, getting a college gym is difficult--the exception would be spring break if someone doesn't beat FIRST to it). There's large areas--northwest LA county for one--that aren't covered.

4. How many High Schools are in SoCal?

No idea.


Here's where the fun starts, though. Yes, there are enough high schools. (We'll assume that that's the case, because I don't have those numbers. I assume that you have made some effort to get them, or you wouldn't be asking.) The question is: At what cost? One of the possible places that the Torbot mentors were tossing around actually managed to nix an FLL Championship event being held there, simply by deciding that "hey, this robotics group has lots of money, let's charge them"--after said event had been held there previously. We should be out of CIF season, so that's less of an issue (Spring Scrimmage got bumped by a CIF basketball game). You've also got the "skeptical administrator" and the "Sure, pay us an arm and a leg" and the "Sorry, booked up by X, Y, and Z" to deal with. Those can be worked around... but it's going to take a lot more time.

Math doesn't lie: There is the possibility. But you've got to have people on the ground looking. What you've got down here is, largely, one team looking in their area. You need more people looking in more places. Central Coast? Lancaster/Palmdale/Antelope Valley? South Bay/Beach Cities? San Fernando Valley? I've seen people commenting in the thread from those areas. I can't say any of them have put venues in the list. I know I'm not in a position to put down a venue as "yes, this one can most likely host". (If I could, I would.) I know several venues that would probably be disqualified on one or more "obvious" grounds, so if one of those shows up I can put down a note that says "Hey, X is going to make life difficult".

Let me put it this way: I'm not opposed to districts, in the proper time. But when someone who is outside my area, with relatively limited visibility into my area, simply says, "This is the way we want to do it over your area, and with *handwaving here* it'll happen"--I'm really sorry, but I'm going to call you on that. You need more people down here, to get more visibility into the situation down here. They should have been there from the beginning. And the people that are down here are telling you that there are problems--problems that you are blowing off as "That can be fixed, just use some imagination and creativity". Problems that we know can be fixed, but we don't know how much time and effort it'll take over and above what we're already putting into this program just to find a solution, let alone execute it.