Predictions: The Return of One Championship?

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by Rick

4 levels is not possible without either moving kickoff earlier or pushing worlds back. Not enough time in the 9 competition weeks to have teams compete in both DCMPs and Super Regionals.

I actually just found the presentation that graphic was from by complete chance (http://www.slideshare.net/ne-first/n...ll-meetings-ct). According to slide 7, FIRST did plan to eventually have 4 levels as of 2012. I have no idea how that would be possible now that I think about it. It would not only be another competition to squeeze in, it would mean some teams would have to make short-notice travel plans 2-3 times in a single season.

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by ASD20

..it would mean some teams would have to make short-notice travel plans 2-3 times in a single season.

This is really the only reservation (as a team) that I have with districts, and this would be yet another level. (Moving a single CMP back a week or two is minor compared with the costs of getting there, if it were reinstated.) With every additional level, the cost to advance is $4 or $5K plus travel per level. It would be great if at least there were no additional registration costs for advancements you'd earned.

[The other Gabe]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

It would be great if at least there were no additional registration costs for advancements you'd earned.

money doesn't come out of thin air unfortunately (and if it did, I suppose we would have found something else to be our currency). how would the events be funded if not with registration costs?

[SpaceBiz]

Originally Posted by The other Gabe

money doesn't come out of thin air unfortunately (and if it did, I suppose we would have found something else to be our currency). how would the events be funded if not with registration costs?

Good question. Maybe we can let event sponsors use students on these teams for free labor over the summer. Just make each team that doesn't want to pay registration give their best students mandatory unpaid internships.

In all seriousness, cost is probably the biggest reason I would expect single champs won't return for a while. Far enough in the future when 80% of the teams good enough to go to theoretical super regionals and champs can afford both, it will happen. 2026-2030 is my best guess. Possibly sooner if the single champs is in the 300ish or less teams range.

[cbale2000]

Originally Posted by The other Gabe

money doesn't come out of thin air unfortunately (and if it did, I suppose we would have found something else to be our currency). how would the events be funded if not with registration costs?

Can't speak for how this would work for a larger event like Worlds, but as it is now, if I'm not mistaken, none of the money collected from registrations for events in Districts (at least for FiM) actually go to the districts. I believe the same is true for District Championships as well. All the costs are covered by event sponsors. Jim Zondag also confirmed this in a post a while back.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by ASD20

While it didn't have a lot of the fluff of Worlds, when you strip it down to what it is at its core, a robotics competition, I truly think it rivaled Worlds.

Except, at its core, FIRST is not a robotics competition.

Originally Posted by Dean Kamen

FIRST is more than robots. The robots are a vehicle for students to learn important life skills. Kids often come in not knowing what to expect - of the program nor of themselves. They leave, event after the first season, with a vision, with confidence, and with a sense that they can create their own future"

Originally Posted by FIRST's mission

The mission of FIRST is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting Mentor-based programs that build science, engineering, and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership.

Originally Posted by FIRST's vision

"To transform our culture by creating a world where science and technology are celebrated and where young people dream of becoming science and technology leaders." Dean Kamen, Founder

No where, in ANY of that, does FIRST or Dean talk about robots. Robots are simply the vehicle FIRST uses to reach it's goal, it is not FIRST's core. That "fluff" you talk about, is probably more at the core of FIRST than you give it credit for. Getting all of the programs together to inspire each other, bringing in colleges from around the world to talk with students about their future, having technology companies on hand getting immersed with the event, hosting conferences to help spread knowledge... those are all a big part of FIRST's core, and I HIGHLY doubt DCMP's come anywhere close to CMP when it comes to those things. FIRST is about so much more than the performance on the field, but so many people seem to fail to grasp that.

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by cbale2000

Can't speak for how this would work for a larger event like Worlds, but as it is now, if I'm not mistaken, none of the money collected from registrations for events in Districts (at least for FiM) actually go to the districts. I believe the same is true for District Championships as well. All the costs are covered by event sponsors. Jim Zondag also confirmed this in a post a while back.

I believe only about $1000 from initial registration goes to the District, like the post you linked says, but all of the $1000 for additional district events goes to the District. I had thought that the District gets all or most of the money from DCMP, but Q13 on this seems to confirm that they actually don't get anything, or at least used to not.

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Except, at its core, FIRST is not a robotics competition.


No where, in ANY of that, does FIRST or Dean talk about robots. Robots are simply the vehicle FIRST uses to reach it's goal, it is not FIRST's core. That "fluff" you talk about, is probably more at the core of FIRST than you give it credit for. Getting all of the programs together to inspire each other, bringing in colleges from around the world to talk with students about their future, having technology companies on hand getting immersed with the event, hosting conferences to help spread knowledge... those are all a big part of FIRST's core, and I HIGHLY doubt DCMP's come anywhere close to CMP when it comes to those things. FIRST is about so much more than the performance on the field, but so many people seem to fail to grasp that.

While I did say that some of the things like College Row and Conferences were not absolutely necessary to the competition, I also said that I thought that they should be expanded at the DCMP level. Also, when I said robotics competition, I was not just talking about the competition on the field, I was talking about what the FRC community has come to describe as a robotics competition. Those events where you meet all sorts of different people from different places and backgrounds and where you are able to learn from and be inspired by those people. It is those things that I have seen and come to expect from all FRC competitions that I use to define a robotics competition.

Upon rereading my post I probably could have been more clear in my thoughts. The stuff I meant was fluff, is things like the flight simulator, the big show after closing ceremonies, the decorations, etc. While I do not think they took away from the event and I have no idea what cost those things might have had (I assume a lot of it was donated or heavily discounted), I personally would not really miss them if they were gone and they certainly have nothing to do with FIRST's mission. I don't have anything against those things, but if we can reach a point where the largest difference between DCMPs and CMPs are those superficial things (which I am aware we are still a long way from), I will consider DCMPs acceptably close to the "Championship Experience."

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Except, at its core, FIRST is not a robotics competition.

But FRC is a robotics competition. It's in the name, right there, after the word FIRST. You can't just use FIRST and FRC as interchangeable terms in order to say a robotics competition isn't a robotics competition. These aren't FIRST District Championship events, these are FRC District Championship events. Yes, the mission of the FIRST organization as a whole is separate from "hold a robotics competition", but FRC, one of FIRST's vehicles for executing its mission, is a robotics competition. It's not unreasonable for people to suggest that we make changes to make the robotics competition aspect better, and it's belittling to dismiss any suggestion of change out of hand by insisting FRC isn't what it is.

Getting all of the programs together to inspire each other, bringing in colleges from around the world to talk with students about their future, having technology companies on hand getting immersed with the event, hosting conferences to help spread knowledge... those are all a big part of FIRST's core, and I HIGHLY doubt DCMP's come anywhere close to CMP when it comes to those things.

Honest question: Have you ever been to a district championship? Other than it not being an international event (obviously), I'm not sure this is true. Lots of these aspects of CMP are already present at DCMPs. Some DCMPs have FLL / FTC demos there. Many have the involvement of dozens of technology companies. Some have conferences, and these could easily be expanded. As for whatever aspects of Champs aren't already strongly present at DCMP, there's nothing stopping local organizers from tailoring their DCMP experiences to get closer to that actual "Championship experience". We can make things better, if we're willing to consider changing at all...

[Nyxyxylyth]

Originally Posted by cbale2000

Can't speak for other events, but at least in the case of Michigan, there's a way to go before the "Local Championship" Experience is anywhere close to Worlds. The production quality is just not there yet. When District Championships start utilizing professional production companies again to put on a "real" show then we'll talk. If every District Championship had at least the kind of event production you see at an event like Festival de Robotique in Montreal, then we can looking at making them "replacements" for the the World Championship, currently they're basically just super-regional size events with district-quality production. Not to say the event's are bad, they just don't have the same impact.

Pretty lights aren't in the quals at CMP, so there's only a few hours of fancy production.

I'd rather not tack on another $20K+ of cost for MICMP.

[cbale2000]

Originally Posted by ASD20

I believe only about $1000 from initial registration goes to the District, like the post you linked says, but all of the $1000 for additional district events goes to the District. I had thought that the District gets all or most of the money from DCMP, but Q13 on this seems to confirm that they actually don't get anything, or at least used to not.

I think it's more that the $1000 goes to FiM, but not every event gets that funding available for their budget (though I imagine a portion of the costs are built into the cost of the field and transporting it). My point was more that it is possible to run events without collecting any additional registration fees, or at the very least with heavily discounted registration fees.

Originally Posted by Nyxyxylyth

Pretty lights aren't in the quals at CMP, so there's only a few hours of fancy production.

I'd rather not tack on another $20K+ of cost for MICMP.

Right, but if the intent were to have the State Champs replace the opportunity for all teams to be able to attend worlds once every 4 years (which was FIRST's described intent for going to 2 Worlds) and limit Worlds to one event, you would have to improve the quality, opportunities, and production of the State Champs in order to be an adequate replacement, IMO.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Personally, I don't see a single championship making a comeback. I don't think it will be sustainable or reasonable when FIRST has to make that decision again and by that time most teams will be used to having multiple championships. In fact after so many ancient threads being referenced express opposite feelings about competition, there might be outrage if a single championship makes a comeback later in the future.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Nyxyxylyth

Pretty lights aren't in the quals at CMP, so there's only a few hours of fancy production.

I'd rather not tack on another $20K+ of cost for MICMP.

The first year of FiM, we still had Show Ready at Ypsi for MSC. (And maybe after that, I don't remember when they were dropped at MSC in favor of producing it with local resources.)

As the opening video played, I thought, "Oh yeah, this is what I missed in the district events, the super woofers creating that rumble in my stomach."

I can do without the fancy lights and sounds too.

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by The other Gabe

money doesn't come out of thin air unfortunately (and if it did, I suppose we would have found something else to be our currency). how would the events be funded if not with registration costs?

Net overall registration costs wouldn't necessarily need to change to eliminate/reduce the margin cost to go to CMP. Things could be restructured similar to what I read about at a district (PNW?) where the district championship registration is included in the registration fees for the district.

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

Net overall registration costs wouldn't necessarily need to change to eliminate/reduce the margin cost to go to CMP. Things could be restructured similar to what I read about at a district (PNW?) where the district championship registration is included in the registration fees for the district.

Referenced information: https://www.firstwa.org/Programs/FIR...ls/FRC-Funding

And yes it is PNW