Chain vs. Belts?!?

[Cothron Theiss]

Originally Posted by ASD20

I would get both that and a dark soul because you will most likely use both #25 and #35 and trust me, if you use it just once, you will feel you got your money's worth.

I'll try and slip the DarkSoul tool in there, but most of the build members on my team are unwilling to try out #25 chain, due to strength and the fact that we have some #35 sprockets left over. I'm working on turning them to the DarkSide (bad joke, couldn't resist) and run #25 on at least manipulators and such, but we'll see how it goes.

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss

I'll try and slip the DarkSoul tool in there, but most of the build members on my team are unwilling to try out #25 chain, due to strength and the fact that we have some #35 sprockets left over. I'm working on turning them to the DarkSide (bad joke, couldn't resist) and run #25 on at least manipulators and such, but we'll see how it goes.

There are plenty of applications where #25 is more than strong enough (like by magnitudes) and the size and weight saving are very useful.

[frcguy]

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss

I'll try and slip the DarkSoul tool in there, but most of the build members on my team are unwilling to try out #25 chain, due to strength and the fact that we have some #35 sprockets left over. I'm working on turning them to the DarkSide (bad joke, couldn't resist) and run #25 on at least manipulators and such, but we'll see how it goes.

I understand the concerns with #25, although we ran #25 on our shooter/intake and had zero issues, even with a master link. For context we ran 2 22T sprockets from VexPro driven by a MiniCIM with a 4:1 VersaPlanatary. In my opinion, it's a useful option to have where #35 would be overkill.

[Cothron Theiss]

Originally Posted by ASD20

There are plenty of applications where #25 is more than strong enough (like by magnitudes) and the size and weight saving are very useful.

Originally Posted by frcguy

I understand the concerns with #25, although we ran #25 on our shooter/intake and had zero issues, even with a master link. For context we ran 2 22T sprockets from VexPro driven by a MiniCIM with a 4:1 VersaPlanatary. In my opinion, it's a useful option to have where #35 would be overkill.

I certainly understand; I designed our 2016 bot with #25 chain in mind for all of the sub-assemblies except drive, but the rest of the team was worried about it, so we went with #35. We had experience with #35 from 2015, and we already had the tools we needed, so it was the quicker option at the time. By the time Kickoff for 2017 rolls around, I hope to have the younger members trained and the shop outfitted so they feel comfortable using both and can determine which is better for different situations.

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss

I certainly understand; I designed our 2016 bot with #25 chain in mind for all of the sub-assemblies except drive, but the rest of the team was worried about it, so we went with #35. We had experience with #35 from 2015, and we already had the tools we needed, so it was the quicker option at the time. By the time Kickoff for 2017 rolls around, I hope to have the younger members trained and the shop outfitted so they feel comfortable using both and can determine which is better for different situations.

Defaulting to #35 is a good first step, but you should then evaluate on a use by use basis whether you should switch to #25. There are some applications that a really obvious, like for spinning your intake wheels or rotating a 1/2 pound hood subject to no load on a hooded shooter. Then there are things that are more questionable, mostly different size arms. You could try doing the math (and add a safety factor if you want) or just play it safe with those applications. Or, if you expect weight to be an issue, design the system to work with both chain sizes, so if #25 fails, you can use #35. Overall, I would say #35 is better for drive and large arms, while #25 is better for spinning wheels, small arms, and miscellaneous small purposes.

[pilleya]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

I did notice some online directions for using the Dark Soul tool referencing a millimeter-based tool (4mm, IIRC).

A 4mm metric allen key is recommended( what it is designed for) which is handy for us being an Australian team and using a lot of metric( M5 and M6) hardware. In reality 5/32 inch is 3.97mm so there isn't exactly a big difference, probably not worth worrying about.

[asid61]

Originally Posted by pilleya

A 4mm metric allen key is recommended( what it is designed for) which is handy for us being an Australian team and using a lot of metric( M5 and M6) hardware. In reality 5/32 inch is 3.97mm so there isn't exactly a big difference, probably not worth worrying about.

We often confuse 4mm and 5/32". The Dark Soul chain tool is one of the fortunate and rare cases where using metric or imperial has no noticeable effect.
0.03mm is ~0.001" so it's well within the tolerance on the hex and on allen keys.

[DrewMatic]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

A similar tool for #35 is available here. As it happens, I'll be ordering a couple this evening, so I can't make a recommendation.

Would you recommend this tool for #35 over a roller chain breaker (which we currently use)?

[Cothron Theiss]

Originally Posted by DrewMatic

Would you recommend this tool for #35 over a roller chain breaker (which we currently use)?

I'm not the best person to answer this because I was just getting advice about the same part earlier, but I believe the distinct advantage with the tool GeeTwo and others were referring to is that you can use it to break and reform the chain. The threaded rods can be used to push the pins out or push the pins back in to create continuous chain loops without master links.

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by frcguy

I would absolutely stay away from one of those "one size fits all" spring loaded models. We have one and it is absolute garbage. Instead of pushing the pin out, it just bends and destroys the chain side plates. We were able to mess with it enough to break the chain for our shooter this year but it was a nightmare.

I fully agree. After a few hours working with the Dark Soul tool, I've decided to add another line to my auto-signature.

Edit: On the off chance that I ever remove this from my auto-signature: Friends don't let friends use master links.

[Owen Busler]

Originally Posted by DrewMatic

Would you recommend this tool for #35 over a roller chain breaker (which we currently use)?

We have 3 dark souls and 3 of these tools in the shop and they are both beautiful. I highly recommend both of them. They are easy to use and with a little practice they break and assemble chain beautifully.

ONE VERY IMPORTANT NOTE!!! When breaking the chain with these tools DO NOT FULLY REMOVE THE PIN!! This makes re-assembling it nearly impossible. Its better to push it out until it is stuck in just the last thin piece of the chain. This keeps it aligned and in place to push back and re assemble when needed.

[Munchskull]

This is anot extremely common questions on CD and TBH this thread is TL;DR.

My personal take on belt verses chain is dependent on where it is on the bot. If it is on the drive train I use Center to Center chain #25 and forget about it. In my experience the stretch is small enough that it has no noticeable impact on the bots performance.

Everywhere else I use belts and put them in tub.

[Cothron Theiss]

Originally Posted by Munchskull

This is anot extremely common questions on CD and TBH this thread is TL;DR.

My personal take on belt verses chain is dependent on where it is on the bot. Ifor it is on the drive train I use Center to Center chain #25 and forget about it. In my experience the stretch is small enough that it has not noticeable impact on the bots performance.

Everywhere else I use belts and put them in tub.

The chains vs. belt discussion is a common topic that the OP probably could have searched for and gotten the same results more quickly, but the last page and a half of this thread actually turned into a helpful (for me at least) discussion about tools for chain. Your info about the #25 chain is still helpful though; it's always good to know of teams that used a less common method with success.

Never underestimate a CD thread's ability to get derailed.

EDIT- Oh, and there's a brief excursion of people discussing polycord as an alternative to belts and chain. The more derailment, the better!

[DrewMatic]

I know for the past page and a half we have been talking about tools for chain. But back to the belts... What sizes would you recommend. I know 100% that the sizes may vary between years and robots. But I'm not sure on the standard belt sizes due to the inexperience with the topic.

Thanks, Drew

Ps. This is very helpful and I appreciate it!

[Knufire]

Originally Posted by DrewMatic

I know for the past page and a half we have been talking about tools for chain. But back to the belts... What sizes would you recommend. I know 100% that the sizes may vary between years and robots. But I'm not sure on the standard belt sizes due to the inexperience with the topic.

Thanks, Drew

Ps. This is very helpful and I appreciate it!

The pulleys that VEX and AM sell are 5mm pitch HTD, so that's what most FRC teams use. Usually 9mm or 15mm wide. You can also run GT2 tooth profile belts on HTD pulleys.