Discussion on All-Girl events

[pilleya]

Originally Posted by The Swaggy P

So, does this mean, as a boy, I should cancel all my educational plans and catch the nearest plane to the salt mines in northern Russia?
For it appears that the planned lunch discussions are biased against males.

Replacing one bias with another does not solve the gender equality issue.

Team 234 is putting a lot of work into organising and running this event let's not take away from that.

The planned lunch discussions are not biased against males. They are simply discussing bias and its effects.

The idea of gender bias is something that you might not want to be discussed, but it is highly important and a good use of time IMO.

Unintentional and Intentional Bias is prevalent in our world and you would have to be quite naïve not to see this.

If you have any specific questions about the discussions I recommend that you Mr Anonymous should PM Chris Fultz

[The Swaggy P]

Originally Posted by pilleya

Team 234 is putting a lot of work into organising and running this event let's not take away from that.

The planned lunch discussions are not biased against males. They are simply discussing bias and its effects.

The idea of gender bias is something that you might not want to be discussed, but it is highly important and a good use of time IMO.

Gender related bias is prevalent and you would have to be quite naïve not to see this.

If you have any specific questions about the discussions I recommend that you Mr Anonymous should PM Chris Fultz

I do not object to gender bias discussions. What bothers me is the format of these discussions, which makes it seem as though all boys are already biased, and only girls are fit to enroll in college and STEM courses.

And I believe you have spelled my name wrong. It is not "Mr Anonymous, it is The Swaggy P.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by The Swaggy P

What bothers me is the format of these discussions, which makes it seem as though all boys are already biased, and only girls are fit to enroll in college and STEM courses.

And I believe you have spelled my name wrong. It is not "Mr Anonymous, it is The Swaggy P.

What bothers me is a troll who is looking to start a fight behind the veil of anonymity.

Back on topic...

I would like to attend and learn some things from the male-focused session, for sure. Thanks for hosting these sessions.

Sincerely,
Andy B.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by The Swaggy P

I do not object to gender bias discussions. What bothers me is the format of these discussions, which makes it seem as though all boys are already biased, and only girls are fit to enroll in college and STEM courses.

And I believe you have spelled my name wrong. It is not "Mr Anonymous, it is The Swaggy P.

Make a new thread to complain and moan if you wish, this thread is about the awesome Indy Rage event.
While your at it, add a team name, and your own name to the account if are claiming that you aren't being anonymous.

[smitikshah]

"The Swaggy P" - I understand you may think that the event is favoring girls and pushing them in STEM, but as some people have brought up, engineering fields are predominantly male. I thought for a while that this was because females just didn't like engineering, but from my personal experiences, I can assure that from my point of view that is certainly not the case.

Quick Storytime:
For this summer, I was accepted into a materials science engineering/bioengineering lab to pursue an idea I had for the future of materials engineering. I was so excited to go into the lab and start working! Within the past week, however, I was a bit turned down by the atmosphere. I am the only female in the lab (of about 15 people), and I feel like there is a lot of unintentional bias going on. For example. just today, all the "bros" (as they like to call themselves) made plans to go out for a lab team lunch, and I was the only one that wasn't invited. I'm sure you will say that this might be due to a variety of other factors - but based on the way they act, I'm sure it's out of unintentional bias. There are a plethora of other examples that would take too long to write out, so if you need more PM me. Again, I'm sure what they are doing is unintentional, and I know that in a professional environment, I shouldn't need to be best friends with everyone I work with, but that environment does make me feel upset and lonely at times. However, since I really believe in my idea, I plan on finishing my work in this lab and trying to fulfill my dream of having the idea published - but I probably won't work at said lab again.

Rambling story aside: Some males might not realize they do it because of the predominant influence of males in the field, but this unintentional bias can lead some of us girls to not feel welcome.

I am thrilled that this event is taking place and hopefully the panel discussions can help better the STEM/Engineering Environment for all of us!

[asid61]

Originally Posted by smitikshah

"The Swaggy P" - I understand you may think that the event is favoring girls and pushing them in STEM, but as some people have brought up, engineering fields are predominantly male. I thought for a while that this was because females just didn't like engineering, but from my personal experiences, I can assure that from my point of view that is certainly not the case.

Quick Storytime:
For this summer, I was accepted into a materials science engineering/bioengineering lab to pursue an idea I had for the future of materials engineering. I was so excited to go into the lab and start working! Within the past week, however, I was a bit turned down by the atmosphere. I am the only female in the lab (of about 15 people), and I feel like there is a lot of unintentional bias going on. For example. just today, all the "bros" (as they like to call themselves) made plans to go out for a lab team lunch, and I was the only one that wasn't invited. I'm sure you will say that this might be due to a variety of other factors - but based on the way they act, I'm sure it's out of unintentional bias. There are a plethora of other examples that would take too long to write out, so if you need more PM me. Again, I'm sure what they are doing is unintentional, and I know that in a professional environment, I shouldn't need to be best friends with everyone I work with, but that environment does make me feel upset and lonely at times. However, since I really believe in my idea, I plan on finishing my work in this lab and trying to fulfill my dream of having the idea published - but I probably won't work at said lab again.

Rambling story aside: Some males might not realize they do it because of the predominant influence of males in the field, but this unintentional bias can lead some of us girls to not feel welcome.

I am thrilled that this event is taking place and hopefully the panel discussions can help better the STEM/Engineering Environment for all of us!

I won't be attending, unfortunately (IN is a bit too far...) but I would like to say that this post effected me a lot more than any single talk or speech that I've heard. If I was attending the seminar about unintentional bias I would look forward to stories or examples like these.

The thread is only at 2 pages yet. If people stop arguing, regardless of stances or views, than legitimate questions can be asked and answered about the event.

[Gdeaver]

Discrimination is discrimination. To exclude a group based upon their sex, sexual orientation, culture or religion is discrimination. This is a sexist discriminating event. Further, it may actually be negative in the goal the organizers are trying to address. This is my point of view.

The girls have to learn how to play with the boys and the boys have to learn how to play with the girls. After over a decade of working with diverse FRC team I can say this is very very hard. Every one is focusing on the girls. We need to also focus on the boys. They need to learn how to play nicely with the girls and take this forward in to the work place in the future. The girls also have to learn how to integrate into a team with boys on it. It all starts with respect. Respect, respect, respect.

Our team will not participate in a sexist event.


Go ahead and Flame me. I have my flame resistant suit on.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

Discrimination is discrimination. To exclude a group based upon their sex, sexual orientation, culture or religion is discrimination. This is a sexist discriminating event. Further, it may actually be negative in the goal the organizers are trying to address. This is my point of view.

The girls have to learn how to play with the boys and the boys have to learn how to play with the girls. After over a decade of working with diverse FRC team I can say this is very very hard. Every one is focusing on the girls. We need to also focus on the boys. They need to learn how to play nicely with the girls and take this forward in to the work place in the future. The girls also have to learn how to integrate into a team with boys on it. It all starts with respect. Respect, respect, respect.

Our team will not participate in a sexist event.


Go ahead and Flame me. I have my flame resistant suit on.

If you've ever walked the pits at an event, you wouldn't say boys are discriminated against in FRc, and any single off-season event isn't going to change that. That's like saying adults are discriminated against at movie theaters because Seniors and children get cheaper tickets.

For me, this sort of discussion keeps coming back to something one of my former students wrote: http://makezine.com/2015/05/01/build...d-better-team/

Is there a solution? Surely, females must be confident in their ability to perform, and they must display that confidence — or they will never receive respect. As stated by Madeleine Logeais, 2014 FIRST Dean’s List Winner, “Expectation translates to invitation.” When a girl enters a situation guarded, others will perceive it as a lack of confidence in her own ability. (Similarly, boys can be overconfident in their ability, yet it can be driven also by the same underlying insecurity.)

Events like this help to build girls confidence, allowing them to go into a mix gendered situation during the season with that confidence and asserting themselves. Otherwise (and as a 10-year mentor for an all girls team, i've seen it way too often) the girls don't assert themselves in those situations, and so the guys run right over them in their confidence. It's nothing intentional by either group most of the time, but rather a result of typical gender stereotyping we all grew up with - since engineering is a "guy thing", girls generally enter it less confident, regardless of their ability, and that lack of confidence causes a lot of the issues. So bring on events like this, help girls build their confidence so they can assert themselves in other situations.

[Liam Fay]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

Discrimination is discrimination. To exclude a group based upon their sex, sexual orientation, culture or religion is discrimination. This is a sexist discriminating event. Further, it may actually be negative in the goal the organizers are trying to address. This is my point of view.

The girls have to learn how to play with the boys and the boys have to learn how to play with the girls. After over a decade of working with diverse FRC team I can say this is very very hard. Every one is focusing on the girls. We need to also focus on the boys. They need to learn how to play nicely with the girls and take this forward in to the work place in the future. The girls also have to learn how to integrate into a team with boys on it. It all starts with respect. Respect, respect, respect.

Our team will not participate in a sexist event.


Go ahead and Flame me. I have my flame resistant suit on.

I think you're missing the point here.

This is not about discriminating against young men to put young women on some sort of pedestal. This is not about pushing young men down, it's about raising young women up.

When it comes to these sort of discussions regarding differing treatment towards people of different ethnicity, gender identity, or anything else, we really need to see this as an "issue" (it really shouldn't be an issue) of equity, not equality. This means that this event isn't about giving everyone the same opportunity; it's about giving opportunity to those who have had it taken away from them by virtue of their own gender. Women face many challenges in the STEM fields, and while I'm sure there are some that only men face, the problems that face women are discouraging at the very least and quite often debilitating. This event give these young scientists an opportunity to experience STEM without those hurdles.

Finally, I would like to step off my soapbox for a minute and apologize for speaking on behalf of any women who may feel differently.

[FarmerJohn]

Originally Posted by Liam Fay

This is not about discriminating against young men to put young women on some sort of pedestal. This is not about pushing young men down, it's about raising young women up.

You are correct, however I believe the argument being made is that if that is the case, don't separate the workshops by gender. Both workshops are important topics, but to say that young women can only attend the "success" workshop and young men can only attend the "learn to fix your accidental bad behavior" workshop makes one push in the right direction and another push in the wrong direction.

Why not offer both workshops to everyone and encourage everyone to attend whichever one they choose, or even mix the two together into a single workshop? Either way by attending one of the workshops the participants will learn something valuable. I think that if a single workshop that covered career success in STEM fields as well as inclusion in STEM was offered, nobody would be complaining.

A final thought: It is no secret that a majority of the difficulties pushing young women away from STEM come from men, even unintentionally, and it is no secret that because of these difficulties entering the STEM fields can be daunting and deterring for many young women. But we forget that sometimes it can also be young women who accidentally make it difficult for other young women to enter the field, and likewise, sometimes young men see STEM as daunting and deterring. It may be a minority, but it still exists. Just as you can't fight hate with hate, you cannot fight gender roles with more gender roles. Inclusion and equality is the only way forwards.

[Liam Fay]

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

You are correct, however I believe the argument being made is that if that is the case, don't separate the workshops by gender. Both workshops are important topics, but to say that young women can only attend the "success" workshop and young men can only attend the "learn to fix your accidental bad behavior" workshop makes one push in the right direction and another push in the wrong direction.

Why not offer both workshops to everyone and encourage everyone to attend whichever one they choose, or even mix the two together into a single workshop? Either way by attending one of the workshops the participants will learn something valuable. I think that if a single workshop that covered career success in STEM fields as well as inclusion in STEM was offered, nobody would be complaining.

A final thought: It is no secret that a majority of the difficulties pushing young women away from STEM come from men, even unintentionally, and it is no secret that because of these difficulties entering the STEM fields can be daunting and deterring for many young women. But we forget that sometimes it can also be young women who accidentally make it difficult for other young women to enter the field, and likewise, sometimes young men see STEM as daunting and deterring. It may be a minority, but it still exists. Just as you can't fight hate with hate, you cannot fight gender roles with more gender roles. Inclusion and equality is the only way forwards.

I appreciate your point of view, and I agree with a lot of what you've said. I have a couple things to say, though.

While in theory, having workshops available to everyone gives twice the number of people valuable experience, it doesn't work out that way. I'm going to overstep my bounds as someone who is not a woman and say that often the presence of men would unintentionally cause these women to not feel as comfortable fully participating or sharing.

And sure, you make a good point about some women who make the STEM world hostile for other women. However, these women 1) are a minority of women in STEM and 2) would likely also benefit from workshops that encourage making STEM more hospitable towards women.

[FarmerJohn]

Originally Posted by Liam Fay

While in theory, having workshops available to everyone gives twice the number of people valuable experience, it doesn't work out that way. I'm going to overstep my bounds as someone who is not a woman and say that often the presence of men would unintentionally cause these women to not feel as comfortable fully participating or sharing.

If solely the presence of another gender makes someone feel uncomfortable, regardless of who they are, that's on them. You cannot say that just having a gender exist in an area is enough to rationalize discomfort. If you cannot speak your mind because another gender is present, that is not the fault of the other gender.

Now I would understand if, for a more specific hypothetical example, boys were in the girl's workshop and they started heckling girls or showing clear examples of bias or prejudice, then yes, it would make sense that others would feel uncomfortable. However to make the assumption that allowing boys to participate in the workshop would surely result in heckling and prejudice is prejudice in it of itself.

We use this program to inspire young adults to be mature and educated individuals who are better prepared for the real world than their peers outside the program. We cannot accomplish this if we use reverse discrimination to solve a problem of discrimination, and we certainly cannot accomplish it if we allow prejudiced assumptions to justify the mindset of irrational discomfort solely due to the presence of another gender.

[ThaddeusMaximus]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

Discrimination is discrimination. To exclude a group based upon their sex, sexual orientation, culture or religion is discrimination. This is a sexist discriminating event. Further, it may actually be negative in the goal the organizers are trying to address. This is my point of view.

The girls have to learn how to play with the boys and the boys have to learn how to play with the girls. After over a decade of working with diverse FRC team I can say this is very very hard. Every one is focusing on the girls. We need to also focus on the boys. They need to learn how to play nicely with the girls and take this forward in to the work place in the future. The girls also have to learn how to integrate into a team with boys on it. It all starts with respect. Respect, respect, respect.

Our team will not participate in a sexist event.


Go ahead and Flame me. I have my flame resistant suit on.

*slow clap* (Bolding is mine.)

Spout all theory y'all want, but we're engineers, and we know that theory doesn't hold up in the real world and we must deal with it. The best way is to practice. The worst thing to do to a budding engineer is to give them a false sense of what reality is. I have never coddled, and will never coddle my students- whether it's about discrimination, workload, etc.

(This is about the direction I feel FIRST is going in in general. I feel there's too much hype and superficiality and quite frankly, disconnect from industry in general...)

Someone mentioned that so many females leave STEM fields after joining. Even if bucking up female involvement is a goal, is false advertising somehow NOT hampering retention?

Personally, I just want more freaking great engineers. I don't care what they look like.

[Ed Law]

Originally Posted by ThaddeusMaximus

Personally, I just want more freaking great engineers. I don't care what they look like.

A lot of companies learned that diversity is important, not because they want to look good and can say they have more women and minorities etc. It indirectly affects their bottom line. It is money. Having a more diverse workforce makes a company more competitive. For most products that are not aimed at a certain gender or ethnicity, you want your engineers to think like and be able to relate to the population that you are targeting to sell your product. If half of the buyers are women, it would be a good idea to include women as part of the engineering design team. I am saying this from past personal experience. Female engineers bring a lot to the table.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by ThaddeusMaximus

*slow clap* (Bolding is mine.)

Spout all theory y'all want, but we're engineers, and we know that theory doesn't hold up in the real world and we must deal with it. The best way is to practice. The worst thing to do to a budding engineer is to give them a false sense of what reality is. I have never coddled, and will never coddle my students- whether it's about discrimination, workload, etc.

(This is about the direction I feel FIRST is going in in general. I feel there's too much hype and superficiality and quite frankly, disconnect from industry in general...)

Someone mentioned that so many females leave STEM fields after joining. Even if bucking up female involvement is a goal, is false advertising somehow NOT hampering retention?

Personally, I just want more freaking great engineers. I don't care what they look like.

This sounds very...weird to me. As a woman and former girl, I can assure you that we do not attend all-girls events in any field and think, "oh wow, the whole field must be guy-free like this!" Trust me, no girl old enough for FRC is ignorant about gender situation in society or slow enough to miss it. You cannot fool me with an off-season. Having an single-gender event, regardless of topic, is the substantive equivalent of hanging up a flashing neon sign that says "we have difficult a gender equality problem in this area, and it won't be easy for you. But we're really trying!" Regardless of whether you think this is trying correctly, there is no universe in which an all-girls event or a thousand of them is false advertising. We understand the way the world works; we've lived here for years regardless of where we go on some weekends.


You are free not to coddle your students, just as others are free to coddle them. Personally I call it incubating, which is also what we do with startup businesses. The goal is not to deceive anyone; it's to build up strengths. It's the same reason you scrimmage with your own sports team in addition to playing others. No, you can't simulate everything you face in a real game (in this case handling professional coed interactions), but you have to work on the fundamentals too. This may seem silly when it comes to coed professionalism, and maybe it is for some people. Maybe your students and potential students are all as naturally talented in this as they are in varsity basketball.

But I am not one of those people. My female students (and some of my male students), by and large, were not those people at the onset. You quoted a fellow mentor of mine from a rather successful MAR team that has a bit of a reputation for good coed work. What Gary says about how we encourage integration is absolutely true, and we're pretty good at it. I should know; I got it as a student! But it's not nearly the whole story of what we provide. In fact as a female former student and mentor, I can assure you that much of the strength of our female recruitment and retention is informal friendships and mentorships within the gender. Our integration work is absolutely critical for making successful teammates and future professionals, but it doesn't cut it alone in terms of retention or recruitment.

My own interactions with male students and mentors would have driven off me the team as a rookie in 2006, had it not been for the other girls and young woman to support me. As a student and later mentor, I have relived that situation over and over and over again. In fact virtually all of the best female students we've ever had came to me at some point(s) (usually as rookies when they were least integrated and most likely to leave) to express discomfit, difficulty interacting, or to quote, "I give up, the guys just won't listen to me." And by that they meant both male students and mentors. Fortunately, I, with my previous years of awesome 1640 'how to work work with guys' experience, would walk over each time and build bridges. But you have to recruit and retain long enough to teach students those skills. You have to practice in the safe zone. If I hadn't built that understanding with the girls--that sort of incubation, coddling, girlfriendship, special treatment, whatever you want to call it--many of them wouldn't've felt comfortable coming to me or even known not to just accept it. I know, because I vividly remember not feeling comfortable and not understanding what I was experiencing--and having an older girl/woman there to help.

1640 does all this without attending all-girls events. Lots of teams do so, and lots of others attend. Our system works for the girls on the team, at least without a comparison. And that's okay. But I have known girls I've tried to recruit or girls that've left quickly because even that first hurdle into the proverbial 'incubator' is too distressing. And sometimes you're inside, but things get to be too much and you want to give up. (This can also involve extra gendered pressures above the standard datum.) If an all-girl event lowers that hurdle or lessens that burden for someone, somewhere, well then I hope they're very a lucky future engineer.

You (general "you") can say this shouldn't be necessary, and I agree. (I fault societal pressures, not the individual girls receiving them.) But even if it shouldn't be needed, what do we say to the girls that would benefit from this event? 'Sorry kid, you should've been stronger?' 'Come back if you don't want to be coddled?' 'No, I'm not going to incubate you enough.' Some people need more help than others. I got what I needed, and instead of walking away ten years ago, and I now have an honors BSME and have coached Einstein twice. You can never know who you're not helping.

For the record, if someone cares to articulate an analogous case of why an all-boys event would be of similar benefit, I say go for it. I'll ref. As I've mentioned previously, this case does indeed exist in some other fields, including nursing.