Value & Credibility of 4th robots on an Alliance

[FiMFanatic]

Not saying they can't provide a contribution - because they certainly can and some surely do. That being said, it is somewhat "luck" that they win as a 4th pick, as there were likely 25-28 other more deserving teams that could have stood on the podium.

Not realizing this fact is part of the society we live in today, where there are participation awards for everyone, kid's leagues that don't have outs, etc., etc.

[Darkseer54]

Originally Posted by FiMFanatic

Not saying they can't provide a contribution - because they certainly can and some surely do. That being said, it is somewhat "luck" that they win as a 4th pick, as there were likely 25-28 other more deserving teams that could have stood on the podium.

Not realizing this fact is part of the society we live in today, where there are participation awards for everyone, kid's leagues that don't have outs, etc., etc.

So what you are say is "The backup quarterback for the Superbowl winning team didn't really win, for him it was just luck being part of the team. After all there are other starting quarterbacks who deserved that ring more." Correct?

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Darkseer54

So what you are say is "The backup quarterback for the Superbowl winning team didn't really win, for him it was just luck being part of the team. After all there are other starting quarterbacks who deserved that ring more." Correct?

I think Cam Newton deserves a Super Bowl title more than Trevor Siemian.

Just because someone deserves it more, doesn't mean the winner doesn't deserve it.

[FiMFanatic]

Originally Posted by Darkseer54

So what you are say is "The backup quarterback for the Superbowl winning team didn't really win, for him it was just luck being part of the team. After all there are other starting quarterbacks who deserved that ring more." Correct?

Sort of. While he gets a ring, it is 90% likely that his contribution to the win(s) was minimal. In football, you play as a team all year. If he started and helped win a few due to injury on the starting QB, different story.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by FiMFanatic

Sort of. While he gets a ring, it is 90% likely that his contribution to the win(s) was minimal. In football, you play as a team all year. If he started and helped win a few due to injury on the starting QB, different story.

So the help strategizing and robot repair/maintenance between matches doesnt count towards helping the alliance?

Having played football I can tell you that 9/10, the backups work harder than the starters. Sometimes just inherent talent/ability overcomes work ethic; the same can be said for robots based purely on robot design and driver skill.

I'm sorry for my language here, but what you are saying is just stupid.

[KosmicKhaos]

Many people consider the 4th robot to be the "back-up" bot of the alliance, however this is not always the case. Yes often times the 4th robot is a "back-up" robot but a 4th robot also allows alliances to deploy different strategies in elimination matches and different strategies in choosing a third robot.

Arguably, in previous years like 2015 the role of a 4th robot was not all that significant as the goal was to just score as many points as you can. This year, 2016, with defense, that opens up a whole new world of possibilities and strategizing for that 4th robot.

My favorite example of the value of the 4th robot on an alliance is of the number one alliance on the Tesla division (2056, 1690, 3015, 1405). Keep in mind 1405 was the 4th pick of the alliance but ended up playing in the finals on Eisenstein. Not because 3015 broke but because of that alliances strategy. From an outside observer it would appear that 2056 picked 1690 and 3015 to play offense early on in eliminations when they could win by merely out scoring the opposing alliance but picked 1405 to sub in for 3015 when they could not win by just out scoring the opposing alliance and needed someone to play defense. This well planned and executed strategy of using the 4th robot clearly helped the alliance to get as far as they did.

*sub-note I don't like to consider a 4th robot the back up robot because that isn't necessarily what they are as proved in 1405's case*

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by FiMFanatic

Not saying they can't provide a contribution - because they certainly can and some surely do. That being said, it is somewhat "luck" that they win as a 4th pick, as there were likely 25-28 other more deserving teams that could have stood on the podium.

And didn't. You're right there were dozens of other teams that COULD have won. But they didn't. So they don't hold the title World Champion.

Also, you're being called out for being a jerk by ME... I'm pretty sure that's some sort of record.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by FiMFanatic

Not saying they can't provide a contribution - because they certainly can and some surely do. That being said, it is somewhat "luck" that they win as a 4th pick, as there were likely 25-28 other more deserving teams that could have stood on the podium.

Not realizing this fact is part of the society we live in today, where there are participation awards for everyone, kid's leagues that don't have outs, etc., etc.

This seems to be an argument that the third team on a small regional or district alliance shouldn't be included in the list of the championship alliance. Often those teams come from below the 50th percentile in the event performance list.

As for Champs, you're too focused solely on what happens on the field. In fact there's a lot more going on in the competition metastrategy. As an example, I'll walk though what we did the last 3 years:

2014: 5136 - the other goal blocker in our division, with a highly competent defensive performance. This gave us a back up goalie to 1114 for auto if it was damaged and the option to bring in a faster defensive robot if needed. 5136 did not play
2015: 5012: we actually thought they would be playing the
Einstein rounds to maximize can grabbing and that 1671 would be playing only in the division playoffs. We switched up with 1671's amazing success. But 5012 was still part of our credible threat in the semifinals that kept 1114 from deploying 900's harpoon grabbers.
2016: 2990: ended up playing on Einstein, substituting for 364 who played in the division playoffs. They earned equal credit on the field.

[EricH]

Andrew, as I recall the pre-'05 rules, not only did every team have to play at least once, but every team had to play at least once in each round of elims. That is:

QFs, if you played A-B in your first match, either A or B had to sit out your second match so C could play.
SFs, if you played A-B in your first match, either A or B had to sit out your second match so C could play.
Finals, if you played A-B in your first match, either A or B had to sit out your second match so C could play.

Third matches were up for grabs.

If there was such a rule about "4th robots have to play", I would expect to see something like this rule, as it disadvantages both alliances relatively evenly.

[dirtbikerxz]

I'm sure someone already said this, but I'm just going to say it, because you know when has repetition not been annoying.

I'm the driver for my team. If we perform good in a match, I'm generally the first person to be commended, followed by the rest of the drive team (of course if I mess up, I'm always reprimanded Jokingly of course). But I always, always point out, nothing I did would have mattered, if the other 20 people on the team hadn't worked their asses of either working on the bot, or the code, or the outreach etc. A 4th alliance member is just as crucial. Just because they might not have been on the field, you have no idea what hard work they might have done in the pits to get the alliance through that match.

And doesn't necessarily have to be physical support. More often than not, mental support is just as crucial. Trust me, I know from experience .

[SoftwareBug2.0]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

This seems to be an argument that the third team on a small regional or district alliance shouldn't be included in the list of the championship alliance. Often those teams come from below the 50th percentile in the event performance list.

This may be going off on a bit of a tangent, but there are times when you really feel the difference between a 66 team regional and a district event. The first year the PNW was going to districts I knew elimination alliances would be different but it didn't really hit home for me until our third district event.

I was enjoying the fact that with only 30 teams it wasn't too hard to keep all the teams in my head as alliance selection happened. We were the 2nd alliance captain and as the 3rd robots were chosen a teammate asked me "are there only two robots left that can handle a ball?" The hairs stood up on my spine for a moment as I double checked the robots left. There were exactly three that would be useful to us. And that meant that with our pick we'd get the last one of them. And alliance #1 got hosed.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

2015: 5012: we actually thought they would be playing the
Einstein rounds to maximize can grabbing and that 1671 would be playing only in the division playoffs. We switched up with 1671's amazing success. But 5012 was still part of our credible threat in the semifinals that kept 1114 from deploying 900's harpoon grabbers.

The decision on whether or not use Team 900 was based on the readiness of the harpoons. The harpoons weren't ready and tested enough by our standards, as such we decided to play it safe and keep 1923 on the field. I actually had no insight into 5012's can grabbers and what they involved until months after the event.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Karthik

The decision on whether or not use Team 900 was based on the readiness of the harpoons. The harpoons weren't ready and tested enough by our standards, as such we decided to play it safe and keep 1923 on the field. I actually had no insight into 5012's can grabbers and what they involved until months after the event.

Thanks for the explanation, Karthik. Some of us in the nosebleeds kept wondering why that evil harpoon array never made it to the field. A MAD standoff makes a good story, though.

Isaac saw what I was thinking immediately -- he and I think alike often. BTW, I don't recall an xkcd reference. My thought was about the end of the 1983 film War Games, in which the NORAD computer learns (by playing a lot of Tic-Tac-Toe before running a lot of simulations) that global thermonuclear war cannot be won.

[plnyyanks]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

Isaac saw what I was thinking immediately -- he and I think alike often. BTW, I don't recall an xkcd reference. My thought was about the end of the 1983 film War Games, in which the NORAD computer learns (by playing a lot of Tic-Tac-Toe before running a lot of simulations) that global thermonuclear war cannot be won.

Off topic, but https://xkcd.com/601/

Maybe the fact my mind went to xkcd first means I have a problem (although WarGames is a great movie)

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by plnyyanks

Off topic, but https://xkcd.com/601/

Maybe the fact my mind went to xkcd first means I have a problem (although WarGames is a great movie)

Ah, so a reference to a reference.

Reminds me of a college friend who watched the 1948 film "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre". When Bogart asks the bandits (who claim to be Federales) to show their badges, they respond with the classic, "we don't need no stinking badges!"* My friend had been using that line for many years without knowing where it came from.
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*Not the actual quote. See the clip.