Value & Credibility of 4th robots on an Alliance

[FiMFanatic]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

I corrected that for you.

In his defense, 4th bots really shouldn't count......by then you are in the middle of the pack for quality, sometimes lower.

I agree with his 2 of 3.

[Aidan Cox]

Originally Posted by FiMFanatic

In his defense, 4th bots really shouldn't count......by then you are in the middle of the pack for quality, sometimes lower.

I agree with his 2 of 3.

Sure, let's just forget about the 4th team on an alliance, Championship winning alliance at that. Sounds perfectly logical.

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by FiMFanatic

In his defense, 4th bots really shouldn't count......by then you are in the middle of the pack for quality, sometimes lower.

I agree with his 2 of 3.

And this is my problem with 4 team alliances, someone always gets left out...

1086 is just as much a world champion as any of their alliance partners and should be respected as such.

[FiMFanatic]

Originally Posted by Aidan Cox

Sure, let's just forget about the 4th team on an alliance, Championship winning alliance at that. Sounds perfectly logical.

Means you were 32nd best.....of 75......(approximately)

[Aidan Cox]

Originally Posted by FiMFanatic

Means you were 32nd best.....of 75......(approximately)

Last year's last pick of the Hopper Sub-Division 1st alliance was an important part of that alliance's World Finalist run.

Also, not every team that's a 4th pick is the 32nd overall, only one is.

And who knows how much a team contributes as a 4th member of an alliance even if they don't have much field time.

I'm not trying to start a classic Chief Delphi mosh pit or deter from this thread's topic but it's disrespectful to not recognize an official member of an alliance. Every alliance member is important.

That said- congrats to all of the alliances at IRI. Really groovy to see 2056 with the win again with their alliance, well deserved. Also happy to see 195 have a finalist run with theirs, another achievement in the great season they have had.

[FiMFanatic]

Not saying they can't provide a contribution - because they certainly can and some surely do. That being said, it is somewhat "luck" that they win as a 4th pick, as there were likely 25-28 other more deserving teams that could have stood on the podium.

Not realizing this fact is part of the society we live in today, where there are participation awards for everyone, kid's leagues that don't have outs, etc., etc.

[Darkseer54]

Originally Posted by FiMFanatic

Not saying they can't provide a contribution - because they certainly can and some surely do. That being said, it is somewhat "luck" that they win as a 4th pick, as there were likely 25-28 other more deserving teams that could have stood on the podium.

Not realizing this fact is part of the society we live in today, where there are participation awards for everyone, kid's leagues that don't have outs, etc., etc.

So what you are say is "The backup quarterback for the Superbowl winning team didn't really win, for him it was just luck being part of the team. After all there are other starting quarterbacks who deserved that ring more." Correct?

[frcguy]

Originally Posted by FiMFanatic

Not saying they can't provide a contribution - because they certainly can and some surely do. That being said, it is somewhat "luck" that they win as a 4th pick, as there were likely 25-28 other more deserving teams that could have stood on the podium.



Not realizing this fact is part of the society we live in today, where there are participation awards for everyone, kid's leagues that don't have outs, etc., etc.

I disagree so much with this that I don't know where to start. I can't tell if you are actually serious or just flaming for the fun of it, but I'll try my best to respond as if you really believe these statements you are making.

First of all, I'm amazed that you are comparing a 4th pick being recognized as a world champion to a participation medal. That's absolutely ridiculous. If you look at an FRC event it very much isn't medals and trophies for everyone. Only a few teams win an award at each event and there are PLENTY that go unrecognized.

These 4th teams deserve to win and be recognized as much as their partners, regardless of if they play on the field or not. Many of them contribute to strategy, devote manpower to working on their partners robot, etc.

The ranking argument is absurd as well. How about Team 120 this year? They played in almost every playoff match and won the world championship. They also were Rank 62 in their division. Does that mean they shouldn't be recognized as world champions or don't deserve to be picked because there were teams that ranked better in their division?

Anyways I don't want to run this thread off the rails too much. Congrats to all of the teams that made it to eliminations at IRI!

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by FiMFanatic

Not saying they can't provide a contribution - because they certainly can and some surely do. That being said, it is somewhat "luck" that they win as a 4th pick, as there were likely 25-28 other more deserving teams that could have stood on the podium.

And didn't. You're right there were dozens of other teams that COULD have won. But they didn't. So they don't hold the title World Champion.

Also, you're being called out for being a jerk by ME... I'm pretty sure that's some sort of record.

[RyanHP]

First, what caused this to happen? and second, 4th Robots are great coming from Team 180's standpoint this year. We managed to pick up a third shooter as our 4th pick so we swapped them and our 3rd pick in the finals because they both did so well. Unfortunately we lost in the Archimedes finals because our captain wouldn't substitute itself out to make our alliance better compete against the eventual Archimedes winner who had all out offence. If you are wondering what our captain bot looked like look up the first year ravens and watch the matches we played. Nothing against their team at all and we are very grateful for them being the only team to show interest in us at St. Louis but they were literally a ramp.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Darkseer54

So what you are say is "The backup quarterback for the Superbowl winning team didn't really win, for him it was just luck being part of the team. After all there are other starting quarterbacks who deserved that ring more." Correct?

I think Cam Newton deserves a Super Bowl title more than Trevor Siemian.

Just because someone deserves it more, doesn't mean the winner doesn't deserve it.

[FiMFanatic]

Originally Posted by Darkseer54

So what you are say is "The backup quarterback for the Superbowl winning team didn't really win, for him it was just luck being part of the team. After all there are other starting quarterbacks who deserved that ring more." Correct?

Sort of. While he gets a ring, it is 90% likely that his contribution to the win(s) was minimal. In football, you play as a team all year. If he started and helped win a few due to injury on the starting QB, different story.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by FiMFanatic

Sort of. While he gets a ring, it is 90% likely that his contribution to the win(s) was minimal. In football, you play as a team all year. If he started and helped win a few due to injury on the starting QB, different story.

So the help strategizing and robot repair/maintenance between matches doesnt count towards helping the alliance?

Having played football I can tell you that 9/10, the backups work harder than the starters. Sometimes just inherent talent/ability overcomes work ethic; the same can be said for robots based purely on robot design and driver skill.

I'm sorry for my language here, but what you are saying is just stupid.

[KosmicKhaos]

Many people consider the 4th robot to be the "back-up" bot of the alliance, however this is not always the case. Yes often times the 4th robot is a "back-up" robot but a 4th robot also allows alliances to deploy different strategies in elimination matches and different strategies in choosing a third robot.

Arguably, in previous years like 2015 the role of a 4th robot was not all that significant as the goal was to just score as many points as you can. This year, 2016, with defense, that opens up a whole new world of possibilities and strategizing for that 4th robot.

My favorite example of the value of the 4th robot on an alliance is of the number one alliance on the Tesla division (2056, 1690, 3015, 1405). Keep in mind 1405 was the 4th pick of the alliance but ended up playing in the finals on Eisenstein. Not because 3015 broke but because of that alliances strategy. From an outside observer it would appear that 2056 picked 1690 and 3015 to play offense early on in eliminations when they could win by merely out scoring the opposing alliance but picked 1405 to sub in for 3015 when they could not win by just out scoring the opposing alliance and needed someone to play defense. This well planned and executed strategy of using the 4th robot clearly helped the alliance to get as far as they did.

*sub-note I don't like to consider a 4th robot the back up robot because that isn't necessarily what they are as proved in 1405's case*

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell

And this is my problem with 4 team alliances, someone always gets left out...

1086 is just as much a world champion as any of their alliance partners and should be respected as such.

I'll second that. After seeing them up close at IRI, I can tell 1086 is a great team with a great robot. Let's not forget that they also played a few matches while 120 was out of commission. I'll admit, 1086 is an exception; the 4th bot of the 2014 and 2015 world champion alliances never touched the Einstein field except for field configuration, to my knowledge. However, even if they don't get time to play, these teams are always picked for a reason.

Originally Posted by KosmicKhaos

Many people consider the 4th robot to be the "back-up" bot of the alliance, however this is not always the case. Yes often times the 4th robot is a "back-up" robot but a 4th robot also allows alliances to deploy different strategies in elimination matches and different strategies in choosing a third robot.

Exactly. It's up to the alliance whether they want their 4th bot to be there as a back-up or to promote strategic diversity in the alliance. Case-in-point: the 3rd seed alliance at IRI picked up 3683 and 5254. 3683 enabled the deadly "feed the batter-shooter" strategy with their fast d̶r̶i̶v̶e̶t̶r̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶c̶l̶i̶m̶b̶e̶r̶ everything, and 5254 was picked to balance out an alliance of otherwise very short-range shooters. That diversity allowed their alliance to take down two of the world champions after losing decisively in the first match. By the way, the QF4 series is a great watch, for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.

Since it's been poked at, I'll give a shoutout to 4587 for their IRI win this weekend. You have a great robot that should have definitely been picked up a lot earlier in the draft. I saw that 2-ball auto work It always hurts me to see lower-seeded alliances unwilling to take even the smallest risks to try to pick up a win, and a 4587 pick was certainly a risk worth taking for any of the lower 4 alliances at IRI.