Value & Credibility of 4th robots on an Alliance

[efoote868]

There are about 120 high schoolers on my robotics team, maybe about 20 or so mentors.

There are only 4 members of my team on the field actively participating during a match - 2 drivers, 1 coach, 1 human player. When 868 wins an event, the entire team wins. Not just the driver, not just the coach, not just the human player. The 136 people not driving the robot had a hand in that victory, the team wins.

The 4th robot on an alliance might not be on the field, but I can assure you that the rest of that team is providing support and working just as hard towards the alliance victory as the people on the robotics team that aren't the drive team.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by FiMFanatic

In his defense, 4th bots really shouldn't count......by then you are in the middle of the pack for quality, sometimes lower.

I agree with his 2 of 3.

Yeah, you'd never pick a 4th robot because of strategy.

Get real! This thread is crap.

[Cash4587]

Originally Posted by evanperryg

Since it's been poked at, I'll give a shoutout to 4587 for their IRI win this weekend. You have a great robot that should have definitely been picked up a lot earlier in the draft. I saw that 2-ball auto work It always hurts me to see lower-seeded alliances unwilling to take even the smallest risks to try to pick up a win, and a 4587 pick was certainly a risk worth taking for any of the lower 4 alliances at IRI.

Thank you for this great compliment. It hurts to know that some people really are getting into this topic. I would like to point out that in every match except for maybe one or two, our "two ball auton" shot and made one ball every time. Just because we weren't making two balls in auto doesn't mean our auto wasn't valuable. We spent weeks making sure that no matter what we would make our first shot in the goal and get the auto crossing points. We found it more important than trying to shoot two and miss both balls. Additionally just because we were a fourth robot on the first alliance does not mean we couldnt have provided just as much help and support to an alliance as a second or third bot on a lower alliance. In a match we would get at least 20 points in auto and shoot as many as 8 balls into the high goal in addition to never missing a park on the batter. We as the 4th robot contributed during the match to the strategy by counting balls behind the opposing alliance driver station to know when some had to be bowled out. We also sat ready to go in if one of our alliance partners broke down, Which in this game could have happened at any moment due to how hard this year was on the robots. Play it down as much as you want but we feel just as important to the number one IRI alliance as the other three were.

[hutchMN]

Originally Posted by Cash4587

Thank you for this great compliment. It hurts to know that some people really are getting into this topic. I would like to point out that in every match except for maybe one or two, our "two ball auton" shot and made one ball every time. Just because we weren't making two balls in auto doesn't mean our auto wasn't valuable. We spent weeks making sure that no matter what we would make our first shot in the goal and get the auto crossing points. We found it more important than trying to shoot two and miss both balls. Additionally just because we were a fourth robot on the first alliance does not mean we couldnt have provided just as much help and support to an alliance as a second or third bot on a lower alliance. In a match we would get at least 20 points in auto and shoot as many as 8 balls into the high goal in addition to never missing a park on the batter. We as the 4th robot contributed during the match to the strategy by counting balls behind the opposing alliance driver station to know when some had to be bowled out. We also sat ready to go in if one of our alliance partners broke down, Which in this game could have happened at any moment due to how hard this year was on the robots. Play it down as much as you want but we feel just as important to the number one IRI alliance as the other three were.

Don't let them get to you. You guys had an amazing robot this year and it was one of my personal favorites. Enjoy your IRI win and I wish you guys the best of luck in the future.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by FiMFanatic

In his defense, 4th bots really shouldn't count......by then you are in the middle of the pack for quality, sometimes lower.

I agree with his 2 of 3.

And this is why anonomous accounts shouldn't be allowed. You are free to make Asinine comments and, frankly, be a jerk without consequences. I know you wouldn't say that to me, or one of my team members, in person but you feel empowered by your Anonimity online. You are a small person. I will think of you no more after I click "submit post."

Sincerely,

Matt Wilson

Coach
FRC 1086 Blue Cheese
2016 FRC World Champions

[MARS_James]

Originally Posted by RyanHP

First, what caused this to happen? and second, 4th Robots are great coming from Team 180's standpoint this year. We managed to pick up a third shooter as our 4th pick so we swapped them and our 3rd pick in the finals because they both did so well. Unfortunately we lost in the Archimedes finals because our captain wouldn't substitute itself out to make our alliance better compete against the eventual Archimedes winner who had all out offence. If you are wondering what our captain bot looked like look up the first year ravens and watch the matches we played. Nothing against their team at all and we are very grateful for them being the only team to show interest in us at St. Louis but they were literally a ramp.

Just as an FYI saying "nothing against them", does not make all of the not very nice things you said go away. I actually just took the time to rewatch the Archimedes finals and in finals match 1 your alliance was down by 9 boulders now 3211 is a good team but they were not scoring 9 high goals a match at championship. In finals match 2 when 3166 was playing defense the opposing alliance scored 11 boulders and yours scored 8, but if we take the number of the undefended number 1 seed alliance (16 boulders) once again you are asking for your third robot (999) to score more boulders then they have been capable of.

But this is me playing Monday morning quarterback with stats to back me up. That being said I don't think insulting a member of your alliance by saying that the fourth bot was better is a good way to represent your team.

[jtrv]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

And this is why anonomous accounts shouldn't be allowed. You are free to make Asinine comments and, frankly, be a jerk without consequences. I know you wouldn't say that to me, or one of my team members, in person but you feel empowered by your Anonimity online. You are a small person. I will think of you no more after I click "submit post."

Sincerely,

Matt Wilson

Coach
FRC 1086 Blue Cheese
2016 FRC World Champions

"Let's ban anonymity on the internet. Sometimes people bully me online." Calm down. Just ignore it and move on with your life.

While I'm at it, I'll ask you a question - what did team 1086 do to help 2481-330-120 with the Einstein victory? I'd like to know since I wasn't involved in the strategical discussions, and from an outsider's perspective, team 1086 only played one match and lost.

[NachoCheese]

A team does not have to be on the field to be an important part of a teams alliance. One of the things we admire most about this year is the phenomenal pit crew that led the team to 2 district wins, a spot in eliminations at our district champs, and enough district points to get us to worlds (in addition to the chairmans award). The match we played and lost was not by a large margin, it was 195 to 181 and the reason being that our drivers had not practiced side shots and attempted them to stay out of the way of our alliance partners. Our pit crew worked hard to make sure that our alliance partners were working and were all hands on deck when 120 went down, providing 2 motors off our own robot the aid their repairs.

We are deeply appreciative that our alliance partners saw how hard our pit crew worked and allowed us to join them and take home the world champ title.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by jtrv

"Let's ban anonymity on the internet. Sometimes people bully me online." Calm down. Just ignore it and move on with your life.

While I'm at it, I'll ask you a question - what did team 1086 do to help 2481-330-120 with the Einstein victory? I'd like to know since I wasn't involved in the strategical discussions, and from an outsider's perspective, team 1086 only played one match and lost.

I suggest we ban anonymous accounts on a forum where PROFESSIONALS and STUDENTS communicate. If that takes explaining, PM me.

As for what 1086 did for the alliance:
1. We were involved in all strategic conversations. Our scouts were feeding us info on the other teams throughout the event.

2. We were a darn good pit crew. We assisted keeping 120 on the field. We scavenged from our stores to replace parts (they still have out versa transmisson and 775pro motor on their robot as far as I know). When 330's climber broke, it was our students who helped fix it and get them back in on the field. When 120 broke their chain for their intake, I personally, went to every team down on the field looking for a master link. We found it on the other side of the arena (sorry I forgot which team I got it from, but thanks!)

3. When 120 couldn't take the field, we stepped in. It was MY bad call that put the team in a bad situation that they weren't ready for. Take a look at any match we ran before then. We NEVER missed that many shots before. I made them do something they weren't prepared to do. It would have been VERY different if I had to do it over again. Take a look at IRI match 88. This is what we should have done with the other bots on the field. (that's not even our best shooting match btw. That happened at our second event in the CHS).

As for bullying, If you see it, you need to stay something about it. If you don't, you condone the behavior. As a person with a physical disability, I believe that rather deeply. Sorry, If I don't

Originally Posted by jtrv

Calm down. Just ignore it and move on with your life.

[g_sawchuk]

An ALLIANCE is, as defined by the manual:

a set of up to four (4) FIRST Robotics Competition Teams who play FIRST STRONGHOLD together

Regardless of whether the 4th robot is on the field, they are a member of an ALLIANCE, and an ALLIANCE is what wins a competition, thus, regardless of whether it is considered fair for them to be included in the win, they are winners.

Of course, it is completely fair for them to be included as winners. Let's use the analogy of a robot to explain why the 4th robot should be included as a winner. We'll pretend our theoretical robot is designed to play FRC STRONGHOLD, and is composed of a...

-Drive
-Intake
-High-Goal Shooter
-Hanger

Let's say that there is one match where a defensive robot on the opposing alliance has managed to master the art of blocking high goal shooters. Thus, this robot decides to simply intake boulders, and out-take them into the low goals. The robot does not use the high-goal shooter that match.

Since they did not use the high-goal shooter that match, does that mean that the shooter should not be considered part of the robot (of course not!)? That is what people who think the 4th robot should be discluded from the winning alliance are essentially saying.

Just because a 4th robot does not play a match (or many matches), it does not mean that they shouldn't be considered part of the alliance. Perhaps in the match-ups, it simply wasn't strategically advantageous to play that robot.

For example....
-3rd robot has an excellent drivetrain, but a horrid shooter
-4th robot has an excellent shooter, but a weak drivetrain

In a matchup against a very strong alliance, with excellent shooters when left undefended, it may make more sense to play the 3rd robot to limit their scoring by approaching with a defensive stance. Under no means does this reduce the merit of the 4th robot being considered part of the winning alliance.

Just like a robot choosing to not utilize their shooter one match because it makes more sense to low goal, a 4th robot not being played is just a strategy being implicated for that match.

[PayneTrain]

what is the value and/or credibility of the fourth person on the drive team because all they do is stand there and talk cant even touch the controls or the game pieces

[jtrv]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

I suggest we ban anonymous accounts on a forum where PROFESSIONALS and STUDENTS communicate. If that takes explaining, PM me.

As for what 1086 did for the alliance:
1. We were involved in all strategic conversations. Our scouts were feeding us info on the other teams throughout the event.

2. We were a darn good pit crew. We assisted keeping 120 on the field. We scavenged from our stores to replace parts (they still have out versa transmisson and 775pro motor on their robot as far as I know). When 330's climber broke, it was our students who helped fix it and get them back in on the field. When 120 broke their chain for their intake, I personally, went to every team down on the field looking for a master link. We found it on the other side of the arena (sorry I forgot which team I got it from, but thanks!)

3. When 120 couldn't take the field, we stepped in. It was MY bad call that put the team in a bad situation that they weren't ready for. Take a look at any match we ran before then. We NEVER missed that many shots before. I made them do something they weren't prepared to do. It would have been VERY different if I had to do it over again. Take a look at IRI match 88. This is what we should have done with the other bots on the field. (that's not even our best shooting match btw. That happened at our second event in the CHS).

As for bullying, If you see it, you need to stay something about it. If you don't, you condone the behavior. As a person with a physical disability, I believe that rather deeply. Sorry, If I don't

Now I know. Thank you.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

what is the value and/or credibility of the fourth person on the drive team because all they do is stand there and talk cant even touch the controls or the game pieces

You know, that's a really good point. I hear there used to be two of them per team, can you believe it? There's still an extra one if the alliance captain's robot isn't playing in an elims match.




[For anybody that thinks this post is serious, try looking up the definition of "sarcasm" and/or "satire".]

[Aidan Cox]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

what is the value and/or credibility of the fourth person on the drive team because all they do is stand there and talk cant even touch the controls or the game pieces

There's a fourth drive team member?

[Electronica1]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

what is the value and/or credibility of the fourth person on the drive team because all they do is stand there and talk cant even touch the controls or the game pieces

I think their job is to yell at a trash can until it lights up.