Value & Credibility of 4th robots on an Alliance

[Ernst]

Originally Posted by ASD20

There is a big difference between saying that 4th bots should not exist and belittling the achievements of the 4th bots that do exist. It is the exact same as the difference between saying that 2 Champs shouldn't exist and saying that the winning alliances don't deserve to be called winners (which will be a thread within 30 minutes of the end of Einstein next year). By saying that the 4th bot shouldn't be considered a winner, you are not telling FIRST that you think that they should get rid of 4 bot alliances, you are insulting a team who already probably is doubting their self-worth. If you don't think 4th bots should exist email FIRST, but right now they do, so according to the manual they are considered a full member of the winning alliance and should be treated as such. Plenty of teams hate the bumper rules, but just because you think the bumper rules should change, does not mean you can just show up for a competition with no bumpers. This is no different.

I think 4th bots are a great idea because they make a ton of logistical sense and can allow for some really interesting strategies if alliances plan and use them well. For example, if we hadn't broken, being able to field us as a defensive threat or a decently capable backup bot could have been a huge strategic benefit for the alliance. But we didn't work. So we didn't contribute on the field. So I don't doubt our worth during those matches; I know it was next to nothing.

The only people who really know how much a 4th bot contributed are the members of that team and their alliance. Everyone else can really only form their judgments based on what they see on the field. If a member of a 4th bot team doesn't feel like a full member of the alliance, why would you question that? 3rd and 4th bots can and do get carried. If the alliance wins, they're a member of that alliance, so they also win. But contributions to that blue banner vary, and it diminishes the work of, for example, 1st and 2nd bots to say that their backup bot who didn't play did just as much as they did and is just as deserving as they are. People need to be honest with themselves about this.

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by Ernst

The only people who really know how much a 4th bot contributed are the members of that team and their alliance. Everyone else can really only form their judgments based on what they see on the field. If a member of a 4th bot team doesn't feel like a full member of the alliance, why would you question that? 3rd and 4th bots can and do get carried. If the alliance wins, they're a member of that alliance, so they also win. But contributions to that blue banner vary, and it diminishes the work of, for example, 1st and 2nd bots to say that their backup bot who didn't play did just as much as they did and is just as deserving as they are. People need to be honest with themselves about this. need to be honest with themselves about this.

Sure, people should be honest with themselves, or not. I don't care. It's just not up to random strangers on the internet to tell them to be or to try to dictate their worth.

[indubitably]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

As for bullying, If you see it, you need to stay something about it. If you don't, you condone the behavior. As a person with a physical disability, I believe that rather deeply.

Directed at a member of the CD Community:

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

You are a small person. I will think of you no more after I click "submit post."

Sincerely,

Matt Wilson

Coach
FRC 1086 Blue Cheese
2016 FRC World Champions

Bully Alert!!

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by indubitably

Directed at a member of the CD Community:


Bully Alert!!

That's an interesting statement. I disagree that I am bullying anyone. Insulting a team, or anyone for that matter, under the cloak of an anonymous account is indeed small. It takes little character to do that. I would have you notice that I put my name to my comments. Why won't the person in question do the same? That answer is simple, he doesn't want to receive the consequences for his statements. I am. Your opinion,however, is duly noted.

[jtrv]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

That's an interesting statement. I disagree that I am bullying anyone. Insulting a team, or anyone for that matter, under the cloak of an anonymous account is indeed small. It takes little character to do that. I would have you notice that I put my name to my comments. Why won't the person in question do the same? That answer is simple, he doesn't want to receive the consequences for his statements. I am. Your opinion,however, is duly noted.

If he made up a name and put in some random team number, you wouldn't have a clue it was a fake name because you would never check to see if that name is real. You'd just assume that person is real. At what point does this stop?

If I posted what you did, but in response to someone with a name, I could risk suspension here. But someone without a real name is ok to insult like that?

[JABot67]

Even though we didn't make it very far, it was thrilling in 2015 Tesla to be the 4th bot on the #1 alliance along with 2481, 624, and 3847. Our strategy was to have 2481 cheesecake 3847 with some really fast can grabbers in case our alliance made Einstein, and we (2930) were to fill in the can grabbing role until 3847 was ready - probably division finals or Einstein.

This is the sort of strategic picking that the four-teams-per-alliance system allows, and I think it is awesome. How many alliances took advantage of this during this past year? Off the top of my head, 2990 didn't play a match in their division playoffs and then hit the ground running with some great defense and ball control to help 148, 1678, and 364 get within 5 points of the finals. It's all about strategy, and four team alliances allow for some pretty awesome strategies. I for one was very excited when I heard in 2014 that four team alliances were going to be a thing, and it hasn't seemed to me for even one moment that the 4th bot on the winning alliance was less of a winner. Alliances win competitions.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

That's an interesting statement. I disagree that I am bullying anyone. Insulting a team, or anyone for that matter, under the cloak of an anonymous account is indeed small. It takes little character to do that. I would have you notice that I put my name to my comments. Why won't the person in question do the same? That answer is simple, he doesn't want to receive the consequences for his statements. I am. Your opinion,however, is duly noted.

perhaps I am missing something but when did he specifically insult you/your team? Even the post this thread started with was questionably mean. In fact id go out on a limb and say you were being obnoxious even correcting him saying 1/2 instead of 2/3. First has an element of luck built in. Even Frank Merrick says that. I think you would agree that teams like 118, 195, 2056, ect have better robots then you but, you are the one hanging up the world championships banner. I don't fault you for that and I have seen your robot doing well in person multiple times but others do. Threads like this very rarely stay completely respectful you and me both know that and sadly you usually can not expect them to do so.

Just some food for thought.

[frcguy]

Originally Posted by JABot67

Even though we didn't make it very far, it was thrilling in 2015 Tesla to be the 4th bot on the #1 alliance along with 2481, 624, and 3847. Our strategy was to have 2481 cheesecake 3847 with some really fast can grabbers in case our alliance made Einstein, and we (2930) were to fill in the can grabbing role until 3847 was ready - probably division finals or Einstein.



This is the sort of strategic picking that the four-teams-per-alliance system allows, and I think it is awesome. How many alliances took advantage of this during this past year? Off the top of my head, 2990 didn't play a match in their division playoffs and then hit the ground running with some great defense and ball control to help 148, 1678, and 364 get within 5 points of the finals. It's all about strategy, and four team alliances allow for some pretty awesome strategies. I for one was very excited when I heard in 2014 that four team alliances were going to be a thing, and it hasn't seemed to me for even one moment that the 4th bot on the winning alliance was less of a winner. Alliances win competitions.

+1

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by indubitably

Directed at a member of the CD Community:


Bully Alert!!

Originally Posted by jtrv

If he made up a name and put in some random team number, you wouldn't have a clue it was a fake name because you would never check to see if that name is real. You'd just assume that person is real. At what point does this stop?

If I posted what you did, but in response to someone with a name, I could risk suspension here. But someone without a real name is ok to insult like that?

Matt has grown dismissive of the persistent political BS that infects this forum on a daily basis and inflames in the offseason when people with no life outside of robotics spend their days s***posting on the boards. The definition of bullying most people with a loose grasp of English is "use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants." A synonym we might be looking for is persecution, especially since people on this board are actually persecuted regularly and the only people that claim to be persecuted are people who by most accounts, are not being persecuted, just being told to go waste someone else's time with their particular brand of drivel (Summer CD specializes in only the highest quality of drivel, you know) It is pretty easy to perceive that members of 1086 might feel persecuted by some kid implying that the work they put in this season to be considered a backup is for naught because of where they got picked on the draft board.

Here are three things people in FIRST with no life love to do:
1) Create exclusive clubs for themselves and their "friends" in an effort to put themselves up on a pedestal
2) Use those networks as a tool to talk $@#$@#$@#$@# about other teams to make themselves feel better, driving wedges between people in an otherwise inclusive program.
3) Pretend to themselves they exercise some great and all encompassing power when in reality they are very small people that do not have the control of themselves they need and therefore choose to concoct a false influence over others to mask the inadequacy.
These are all flaws that are not unique to FIRST, but in lieu of parroting the idea of "Gracious Professionalism" I will just say "Don't be an unrepentant and self absorbed jerk" because it's the most direct the filter on here will let me be.

If it's not abundantly clear, let me explicitly state that I really couldn't give a toss about what people think of me personally, but people who talk $@#$@#$@#$@# about my team and likely will continue to infest our community with their incessant political BS can be easily told where they can stick their opinion. If you think Matt standing up for his team is bullying, I can tell you where you can stick that opinion as well.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

perhaps I am missing something but when did he specifically insult you/your team? Even the post this thread started with was questionably mean. In fact id go out on a limb and say you were being obnoxious even correcting him saying 1/2 instead of 2/3. First has an element of luck built in. Even Frank Merrick says that. I think you would agree that teams like 118, 195, 2056, ect have better robots then you but, you are the one hanging up the world championships banner. I don't fault you for that and I have seen your robot doing well in person multiple times but others do. Threads like this very rarely stay completely respectful you and me both know that and sadly you usually can not expect them to do so.

Just some food for thought.

Sam, I'm going to go ahead and post something you will wish was a PM, but allow me to go out on a limb here and call your post obnoxious. Would you think it would be a jerk move if I just did a wholesale discount of the entire New York City/State regional system, which has only produced one world champion since 2000 (and that team is defunct)? Do you like the idea of people being openly and publicly dismissive of your team and their efforts? This is a simple yes or no question.

Of course there is an element of luck built in to FRC. The two years there was little good luck involved happened to be two of the most reviled years of the competition. That isn't relevant to people being blabbering idiots on the internet. It does require a certain level of competency to make it to championships on a merit bid. It just so happens that 1086 was in the top 5 of their district system this year, beating us in the same brackets two times out of three.

I guess it is too much to ask that people quit being blabbering and disrespectful idiots on the internet at all, even a place like CD which is supposed to operate as an extension of an already existing and intimate face to face kind of community. We should all just throw our hands up and expect BS. We should all feed the drama machine be it in public or in PMs. Why not give in to the idea that every part of FIRST has problems that cannot be fixed or can only be fixed with one's personal gracious flick of a finger?

Maybe people will claim that this was bullying or targeted. It's really not. I'm just 10000 miles over the politics and this cesspool of privilege and pathetic drama that is this website.

[Brian Maher]

This year, 1257 was the third pick of the second alliance on Archimedes. I never got the impression at any point that we were thought of as a backup. All four teams were involved in developing the strategy of our alliance.

Our captain/first pick used their second pick to choose a robot that played defense throughout qualifications, as they were confident they could play defense. They then selected us in the third round due to the versatility of our robot: we could score up to 7 low goals, feed balls for shooters, or play defense. Our captain had heard that we played effective defense at MAR CMP, but had not had a chance to see it on Archimedes.

It was decided that we would play in our first quarterfinal match and our second pick would play in the next, to see which was more effective. However, our robot played the role well in that match, and the decision was made by our alliance for us to continue to play defense. In fact, our second pick never made it to the field on Saturday (I hope there are no hard feelings there).

This shows one strategic use of the fourth robot: making a risky pick while also having a safe contingency plan. They hadn't seen us play defense on Archimedes, so they hedged their bet in us by picking a team they had seen do it. We almost made it to division finals, losing SF2-3 by a mere five points.

[Aidan Cox]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Maybe people will claim that this was bullying or targeted. It's really not. I'm just 10000 miles over the politics and this cesspool of privilege and pathetic drama that is this website.

Salt Delphi

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by indubitably

Directed at a member of the CD Community:


Bully Alert!!

"You are a small person. I will think of you no more after I click submit post" is hardly a killer insult. If someone is legitimately offended by that, then the internet is not the right place for them.

[EmileH]

Originally Posted by EmileH

can somebody please just close the darn thread

But in all seriousness, 1086 is a world champion. Just like 3467 was the backup of 4 Archimedes champions in 2014. They, like us, worked hard, very much so, to get that banner. This issue exists in all sports teams - do you think the backup safety of the New England Patriots was a better overall single player than the starting quarterback of the Seattle Seahawks, Russell Wilson? Of course not! But the Patriots TEAM won the Super Bowl, not just one single player. They won as a team. The Carver ALLIANCE won Einstein this year, and 1086 was a part of that alliance. They deserve their title.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Would you think it would be a jerk move if I just did a wholesale discount of the entire New York City/State regional system, which has only produced one world champion since 2000 (and that team is defunct)?

We're working on it.

[EricH]

All right, I'm going to ask a really simple question.

What about the 4th robot that comes in to replace a broken robot, and possibly helps get the alliance to Champs in the first place?

That's right, 4th robots are perfectly valid at the regional/district level as well. They might not show up as often, and they're eligible to be called in primarily because of their ranking (and that's a whole 'nother debate, folks), but if anybody wants to argue that an alliance should win because of a forced 2v3 (or, on the other side, lose due to same) because somebody can't be repaired in time, then I think there's a lot of people that will be looking at them really funny.

I would say that 4th robots are valuable to the alliance that selects them, or has need of them and calls them in--and they are every bit as deserving of whatever the result is as the rest of the alliance. (Even if they were called in as a backup to an alliance down 0-1 in the finals, and lost that match.)

And the other question: how valuable is that experience to those teams? To work right alongside very good teams for an "extended" time can really boost a team up. That, in some folks' minds (and at some levels), can be just as compelling a reason as any strategic one.