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Unread 27-07-2016, 10:09
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Re: Who makes their own wheels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint View Post
We were having a normal discussion about a simple offseason project, when the trolls show up with "WW2056D" and then we get told that for 99.99% of teams it is a waste of time.

Constructive criticism is one thing, but dang.
They're looking at the problem from a different paradigm than you are. Many mentors on this forum are trying to find the perfect intersection of teaching students, inspiring the team, and maximizing competitive success. You're clearly more interested in the specific lessons that can be taught about locomotion from wheel design in addition to manufacturing, etc. So while their advice isn't really relevant to you, it's useful for other people to learn why teams that prioritize optimization of resources / competitiveness don't machine wheels in the regular season. You've got plenty of valid reasons to do what you're doing; rock on.


Quote:
Yes it can be taught many ways, this is one way I selected.
And I don't think people are objecting to that, really, they're objecting to when you asserted that everyone who doesn't make that decision is opting not to teach their students!

Quote:
So 2056 doesn't teach students or collaborate with other teachers in the offseason?
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Unread 27-07-2016, 10:23
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Re: Who makes their own wheels?

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Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
And I don't think people are objecting to that, really, they're objecting to when you asserted that everyone who doesn't make that decision is opting not to teach their students!
Chris, I was asking clarifying questions to the troll post of

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregor View Post
See my post below

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint View Post
So 2056 doesn't teach students or collaborate with other teachers in the offseason? I agree that making custom wheels during the build season is not an ideal expenditure of time.

However, I thought my job was to educate students. Which I do year round. If my students know how to design and make a wheel, they will understand how to select the best wheel for our application.

I guess we could go the route of copying what the best teams do, but I prefer my students to understand why we do things.
I know that 2056 and all of the top teams teach their students the how and why, they have too. You can't pick the right COTS part without understanding how it works.

The implication I took from the troll post was "don't worry about design and copy what 2056 does."
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Unread 27-07-2016, 10:30
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Re: Who makes their own wheels?

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Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint View Post
Chris, I was asking clarifying questions to the troll post
How is that a troll post? The poster is simply referencing another thread on pretty much the exact same topic.
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Unread 27-07-2016, 10:47
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Re: Who makes their own wheels?

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Originally Posted by ASD20 View Post
How is that a troll post? The poster is simply referencing another thread on pretty much the exact same topic.
A link to a post with a link to a stupid video is a troll post.
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Unread 27-07-2016, 17:24
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Re: Who makes their own wheels?

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Originally Posted by bkahl View Post
There is a reason Mike Corsetto says "Steal from the best, invent the rest" in every post asking why 1678 is so good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint View Post
I know that 2056 and all of the top teams teach their students the how and why, they have too. You can't pick the right COTS part without understanding how it works.

The implication I took from the troll post was "don't worry about design and copy what 2056 does."
Since I got quoted on here, figured it would be about time to chime in

Devin stated a lot of our teams development over the past 4 years. Just as a heads up, the kids are designing a pneumatic catapult on a turret this off-season, pretty much just because we've never done one before. We'll train new kids and add two more mechanisms to our team knowledge base. Its a valuable process that I encourage other teams to try out (we stole the idea from 971 and 973)

"Steal from the best, invent the rest" is something I've been saying for a long time. I probably stole the quote from someone/somewhere, but its been so long I can't remember

Would it irk people in this thread to know I will sometimes encourage our students to copy designs even if they don't understand everything about the design they mimic?

Our students are some of the brightest kids I've met. I can say with 100% confidence they are 10x the engineer I was when I was a student in FRC. Their communication and technical skills amaze me every year.

If my students don't understand a few things, I won't lose sleep over it. Inspiration is why I'm here.

Regardless, good on you Clint, please share your results! We have some wheel CAD from 2014 on our site (I think!) if you're interested.

-Mike

BTW, funny story. We tried 3D printing some 4" wheels on our makerbot during the first week of build season 2014. Never again! We had Aluminum custom wheels back from our machine shop sponsor by week 3 that year... Live and learn!
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Unread 27-07-2016, 20:11
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Re: Who makes their own wheels?

841 has done the custom wheels R&D project, and the students involved at the time got some really solid benefits out of it. We still have the Google Doc that all the research was compiled into, and have used the polyurethane learning for other mechanisms since then.

A couple years down the line now, we've decided the last two seasons that Colsons make more sense on the actual robot, as they offer better durability and more predictable performance than the polyurethane tread we had on the custom wheels.

We've recently upgraded our machining capabilities (our first CNC equipment!!) and I'm thinking it might be a good year to suggest the students take another run at the wheel problem in the offseason. It's a nice simple piece that we can make "as complex as we want to" to try out the new machining abilities.
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Unread 28-07-2016, 16:54
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Re: Who makes their own wheels?

I'm going to chime in here because I've watched this blow up without any explanation on why we are building wheels other than the intent to teach students the process of manufacturing.

This year we bought some wheels. (I won't say what wheels, they were plastic.) We used them during build season and they failed.

We are building our first WCD this offseason and are trying to keep it as cheap as possible. We found that aluminum wheels are very expensive, so we found that it would be cheaper to just buy aluminum blocks and make them ourselves (about a 50% savings).

Thank you to everyone who gave advice about making wheels. After a very successful year we are trying to venture out and try some new things. We've made the same drivetrain for over 10 years. It has worked well for us, but we see the advantages of WCD. Expect to see more posts from Clint asking questions about certain things, we need the help.

P.S. Part of our inspiration for doing this project was the released materials this offseason. We specifically looked at the CAD of 254 and 1678 on how to make a WCD.
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Unread 28-07-2016, 17:10
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Re: Who makes their own wheels?

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Originally Posted by Landonh12 View Post
This year we bought some wheels. (I won't say what wheels, they were plastic.) We used them during build season and they failed.
I'm going to assume the wheels you bought weren't pneumatic wheels. Keep in mind that if that is the case and you replace them with aluminum non pneumatic wheels it wouldn't be surprising to see similar failures if used to play the 2016 game, given the impact forces robots see while crossing defenses.
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Unread 28-07-2016, 17:33
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Re: Who makes their own wheels?

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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
I'm going to assume the wheels you bought weren't pneumatic wheels. Keep in mind that if that is the case and you replace them with aluminum non pneumatic wheels it wouldn't be surprising to see similar failures if used to play the 2016 game, given the impact forces robots see while crossing defenses.
They were pneumatic. There was a thread about it. I didn't mention the brand/model because I didn't want to bring up the whole discussion again since it was a little controversial.
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Unread 28-07-2016, 19:55
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Re: Who makes their own wheels?

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Originally Posted by Landonh12 View Post
They were pneumatic. There was a thread about it. I didn't mention the brand/model because I didn't want to bring up the whole discussion again since it was a little controversial.
There are many factors that contribute to wheel hub failure. I wouldn't write off all plastic wheels because you had failures with the AM Pneumatic wheel hubs.

The great thing about a WCD is that it's so easy to swap wheels. You mentioned in the last thread that you drove the pants off the wheels until they failed (which is an absolutely great way to test things). If you have the budget and the time, I'd finish your custom wheel + WCD project and grab a bunch of the various common FRC wheels (Colsons, AM Hi-Grips, VEX Traction, your custom wheels will probably end up being similar enough to AM Performance wheels) and drive the pants off of all of them.
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Unread 28-07-2016, 21:17
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Re: Who makes their own wheels?

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Originally Posted by Landonh12 View Post
They were pneumatic. There was a thread about it. I didn't mention the brand/model because I didn't want to bring up the whole discussion again since it was a little controversial.
Did you use loctite?
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Unread 28-07-2016, 22:09
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Re: Who makes their own wheels?

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Originally Posted by ASD20 View Post
Did you use loctite?
We applied the Loctite after the hubs had failed. That was the controversial issue in that thread.
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Unread 27-07-2016, 11:10
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Re: Who makes their own wheels?

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Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint View Post
Chris, I was asking clarifying questions to the troll post of
How is a post a troll post if it links to a discussion on the same topic, including testimonies from Adam and Tyler, who not only are some of the most Respected mentors I know, but also some of the smartest.

If ANYTHING, it adds to the discussion by bringing relevant info from another thread.

And to be really honest, he linked you to a thread that you COULD have found if you searched.

Quote:
The implication I took from the troll post was "don't worry about design and copy what 2056 does."
Seriously?

There is a reason Mike Corsetto says "Steal from the best, invent the rest" in every post asking why 1678 is so good.

No one is trying to tell you to copy 2056. But, from experience and the obvious testimony in this thread, designing a custom wheel IS NOT the best use of time, resources, or knowledge. You'll find much better use of time and I think students would find a better experience designing a different custom mechanism, like maybe an elevator, a more complicated drive train(that uses COTS, most drives SHOULD), or something that is a bit more complicated than something I can make in about 3 clicks in CAD.
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Last edited by bkahl : 27-07-2016 at 11:26.
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Unread 27-07-2016, 11:15
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Re: Who makes their own wheels?

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Originally Posted by bkahl View Post
How is a post a troll post if it links to a discussion on the same topic, including testimonies from Adam and Tyler, who not only are some of the most Respected mentors I know, but also some of the smartest.

If ANYTHING, it adds to the discussion by bringing relevant info from another thread.
Because it doesn't agree with his point.
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Unread 27-07-2016, 14:01
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Re: Who makes their own wheels?

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Seriously?

There is a reason Mike Corsetto says "Steal from the best, invent the rest" in every post asking why 1678 is so good.
Exactly, we do just that by copying designs other teams have used for custom wheels modifying as needed and making them for our robots. We also have an internal saying that we should only "build what we know" where we only build stuff we have built before and know the fine details of or are sufficiently confident we can pull off. We make that list longer in the off season by doing projects EXACTLY like this. We would have had pretty crappy bots if we hadn't first learned ourselves how to build an elevator off season 2014 and an articulated arm in off season 2015. A drivetrain is the SOUL of your robot, and a badly implemented drivetrain is the single quickest way to to have a shorter competition season.

"I have never built a WCD before and don't feel comfortable switching to this different type of design, so we are building one this off season so we don't make stupid mistakes this coming build season."

We used custom traction wheels in 2013 and 2014 because it mattered. In 2015 there was near zero reason for that level of traction so we ran colson. In 2016 we ran pneumatic and colson because we knew that the custom wheels would not provide the durability needed to survive the game. All those decisions were based off of prior experience, personal or leveraged from the community.
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