Discussion on All-Girl events

[s_forbes]

Originally Posted by Ed Law

I am assuming you are referring to anfrcguy who created an account today and only posted on this thread.

(...)

If I was someone who lurked on this message board and only decided to create an account when I saw a topic that I had a heavy opinion on, being immediately labeled as a troll would surely turn me away from the community. Maybe I hang around different parts of the internet than the rest of you, but that user doesn't seem like a troll to me.

Originally Posted by Pauline Tasci

But bullying is prohibited on CD. And this account is bullying a lot of people on this thread about our views.

On the subject of bullying, please keep in mind the reaction to the user who's post was used to start this thread:

Originally Posted by The Swaggy P

(...)

I have received private hate messages, both directly & indirectly insulting me. I've been called names, I've received veiled threats. And after looking into my sudden reputation drop to 5 negative reputation bars, I found out that between 12:00 AM & 9:00 AM this morning, 400 negative reputation was added to my profile without any additional rep comments. For these reasons I choose to remain anonymous, since I don't want to be yet another victim of discriminatory violence in a country that supposedly allows freedom of speech.

I am only a high school student, and you have shown me the worst of what the future has to offer here. I will no longer be posting or responding to users in this thread, as I will clearly only receive hate in return.

It's probably a waste of words, but I encourage y'all to try and view things from other peoples perspectives before you post. Being inflammatory and insisting your view is the only correct one just makes this forum look silly. This is the kind of atmosphere that completely turned me off of posting here when I was in high school.

[Sperkowsky]

Why do people keep saying that these anon accounts are trolling? All I see is people with different views then yourself. I am not saying I agree with either side. But by calling someone disagreeing with a troll you are invalidating your argument. There are 2 sides to every debate. In order to get anywhere both sides have to mutually respect each other.

[jajabinx124]

Originally Posted by s_forbes

It's probably a waste of words, but I encourage y'all to try and view things from other peoples perspectives before you post. Being inflammatory and insisting your view is the only correct one just makes this forum look silly. This is the kind of atmosphere that completely turned me off of posting here when I was in high school.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Why do people keep saying that these anon accounts are trolling? All I see is people with different views then yourself. I am not saying I agree with either side. But by calling someone disagreeing with a troll you are invalidating your argument. There are 2 sides to every debate. In order to get anywhere both sides have to mutually respect each other.

I agree with these posts. I'm not taking a side either, but I agree that being inflammatory and insisting one view is the correct one makes this thread and parts of CD look silly as heck. The only way we are going to progress on issues such as this, and other societal issues, is being open of others perspectives and respectfully disagreeing with what was mentioned. I understand the inflammatory responses because it's obvious many people have direct personal feelings attached to this issue and that causes the disagreeing to come out with an ego which I understand, but it's an issue because this thread largely fell apart because of that. The only way we are going to make a change is by opening up people to speak their opinions and have a mutual debate. This thread discourages many members from participating/expressing their views on crucial societal issues. And honestly if they don't voice that then the issues get prolonged further.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Why do people keep saying that these anon accounts are trolling? All I see is people with different views then yourself. I am not saying I agree with either side. But by calling someone disagreeing with a troll you are invalidating your argument. There are 2 sides to every debate. In order to get anywhere both sides have to mutually respect each other.

Because people who use anonymous accounts typically have unpopular opinions and others are weary of calling them what they really are (asses), so they use the word troll to make it okay.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Gregor

Because people who use anonymous accounts typically have unpopular opinions and others are weary of calling them what they really are (asses), so they use the word troll to make it okay.

So because they have an unpopular opinion they are automatically asses?

The reason they need to make anonymous accounts is because people are so toxic towards the unpopular opinion. If we all atleast mutually respected each other these anonymous accounts would more or less disappear.

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by s_forbes

If I was someone who lurked on this message board and only decided to create an account when I saw a topic that I had a heavy opinion on, being immediately labeled as a troll would surely turn me away from the community. Maybe I hang around different parts of the internet than the rest of you, but that user doesn't seem like a troll to me.

To quote the description of CD found by googling 'Chief Delphi', "This is a discussion forum used to discuss the FIRST Robotics Competition." If after weeks or months of lurking on Chief Delphi, the first thing you feel compelled to post on this ROBOTICS forum is some highly questionable research about the biological differences between genders, maybe you should find a different forum. The internet is a large place. I am sure there are dozens of forums that you may find more interesting.

[anfrcguy]

Originally Posted by ASD20

To quote the description of CD found by googling 'Chief Delphi', "This is a discussion forum used to discuss the FIRST Robotics Competition." If after weeks or months of lurking on Chief Delphi, the first thing you feel compelled to post on this ROBOTICS forum is some highly questionable research about the biological differences between genders, maybe you should find a different forum. The internet is a large place. I am sure there are dozens of forums that you may find more interesting.

In my case, I had spent months lurking on CD, but I didn't really feel the need to post anything. However, after reading this thread, I felt I had a heavy opinion on this topic and created an account. The thread is clearly robotics related (it's a discussion on robotics events), and so was my post. Also, you say there are dozens of forums that I may find more interesting, as if that's a reason not to participate on CD. I'm sure there are many CD users who find other forums more interesting; would you recommend to them not to use CD?

Also, I find it interesting that you qualify the research as "highly questionable"... I'm curious as to what exactly is highly questionable about it.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by anfrcguy

Also, I find it interesting that you qualify the research as "highly questionable"... I'm curious as to what exactly is highly questionable about it.

Wikipedia is not a reputable source of information.

[Ernst]

Originally Posted by Madison

Wikipedia is not a reputable source of information.

Yeah, neither are any of the sources that page cites:

American Psychologist
Personality and Individual Differences
British Journal of Psychology
Nature
Journal of Experimental Pedagogy
Learning Disabilities: A Contemporary Journal
Science
The Spanish Journal of Psychology
Journal of Psychoeducational Assessment
Archives of Clinical Neuropsychology
Human Brain Mapping
Journal of Dental and Medical Sciences
Behavioural Brain Research
European Journal of Cognitive Psychology
Neuropsychology
Perspectives on Psychological Science
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
Journal of Ayub Medical College, Abbottabad
Biological Psychiatry
Neuroscience & Biobehavioral Reviews
Psychological Science in the Public Interest
Psychological Bulletin
Psychological Science
American Sociological Review
Journal of Personality & Social Psychology
American Journal of Sociology

[Siri]

Originally Posted by anfrcguy

Also, I find it interesting that you qualify the research as "highly questionable"... I'm curious as to what exactly is highly questionable about it.

I'll speak for myself on this; I don't find the studies themselves particularly questionable. They're peer-reviewed, and their authors are well enough regarded. The Colom paper is very narrow in scope, however. The Linn paper is broader, well-cited and in a high impact factor major journal. It does a good job of reviewing the current debate on gender-based child spatial development research. Note however, that when I say "current", I mean from 1985. I'm not a cognitive development expert, but a cursory inspection of its recent citations indicates the field has moved on in the intervening 30+ years. (I won't claim to know in what direction.)

Moreover, neither of these papers have anything to do with what you're talking about.

All that Colom, Escorial, and Rebollo suggest is that contradictory findings from certain testing methods are attributable to the tests' specific visuo-spatial format. Their study is not designed to address the origins of the differences in spatial performance, nor indeed the veracity of any differences in reality. They are only saying that with regard to this specific test format, the differences in performance disappear when one controls for spatial ability as it is required in that test. They make no claim that this format for testing dynamic spatial performance is a reasonable or accurate reflection of reality, much less whether that reality is biologically (rather than experientially) based. (They do point to a general view of some kind of gap as a reason to check the possibility, but they make no assertions about it.) It's a very narrowly-defined study that only attempts to resolve inconsistencies in previous experimental results, which explains its length and minor reference status.

The Linn and Peterson paper is broader and more interesting. It's also very clear in its conclusions (in 1985) that the origin of any sex differences in spatial ability have not been determined or even fully characterized, and in fact are not decidedly genetic by any assessment. I'll quote for those of you who don't have access to the full version:

Originally Posted by Linn and Peterson, 1985

To the extent that any biological factors affect spatial ability they would interact with sex-typed experiences and sex-role expectations to produce the observed patterns of performance (e.g., Newcombe et al., 1983; Tobin-Richards & Petersen, 1981). Males and females have differing experiences across the life span (e.g, Bem & Bem, 1970; Cordua, McGraw, & Drabman, 1979; Haugh, Hoffman, & Cowan, 1980; Papalia & Tennent, 1975). The relationship between these experiences and documented sex differences in spatial ability has not been established but may eventually offer an explanation for sex differences in spatial ability (e.g., those in mental rotations) and for the success of training programs aimed at reducing the differences (Connor, Schackman, & Serbin, 1978; Goodenough et al., 1984; Newcombe et al., 1983; Liben & Golbeck, 1984).

In conclusion, sex differences in spatial ability are now more specifically described. The mechanisms that lead to these differences remain to be established, as do the possible influence of these differences on other behaviors. Individuals probably have an assortment of spatial skills rather than a single ability. Furthermore, several mechanisms may contribute to the observed sex differences. Researchers attempting to characterize the nature and origin of these differences and their potential influence on other behavior need to differentiate the types of spatial ability and the processes respondents use for each item type.

So in fact, Linn and Peterson 30 years ago said what several posts on this thread have said about them now: namely that such studies cannot possibly be controlling for environmental and experiential factors separately from biology. It's true, and they were sure to point out as much back then. Efforts like the type this thread is discussing are aimed at addressing experiential and environmental factors that might be contributing to any gender performance differences that do exist. So while neither of these studies do anything to reason away the gender gap via biology as you've alluded, they can be read as a positive for interest in correcting potential performance differences caused by gendered life experiences.


EDIT: Since we've pulled back to the Wikipedia page, the two articles I'm addressing were the ones directly citing in this post:

Originally Posted by anfrcguy

Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_di...n_intelligence (and the references at the bottom). There is a fairly overwhelming scientific consensus that there are "differences in the capacity of males and females in performing certain tasks, such as rotation of object in space, often categorized as spatial ability," in which a male advantage exists (https://www.researchgate.net/publica...tial_a bility, http://www.jstor.org/stable/1130467?...tab_conten ts are just a couple examples). I doubt many would disagree that spatial ability plays an important role in building a robot.

Note that I am certainly not suggesting that women can't excel in FRC as men can, nor am I suggesting that biology is the sole cause of the gender gap. But to those who dismiss so quickly and confidently the notion that some of the disparities in gender composition could be attributed to physiological differences, I feel that further research would be worthwhile.

(emphasis mine) My point in particular is that this post drastically misrepresents the studies it actually cites, inserting the word "physiological" where none is intended or implied, and saying that those who disagree with the assertion should do more research. In fact, the research investigated at the links provided in no way support or even address the idea that "disparities in gender composition could be attributed to physiological differences". (This is not to say it's impossible, just that it's unsupported. I could easily insert any number of words in for "physiological" in this context and have a similar strength of argument.)

[Siri]

Sorry to double, but I just want to say that I don't intend to assume anfrcguy is deliberately misrepresenting these studies or the consensus quote. I don't know their age or STEM background, and I'm willing to suspect this poster simply made a legitimate error in conflating findings of gender differences with theories of physiology. It's an understandable mistake, particularly as a layperson when reading a site like Wikipedia. The measure of one's scientific integrity is not who is correct first, but who is most willing to address to new findings.

To everyone interested in engaging on the scholastic research here, that is certainly your right and can be a very valuable experience. But do remember, as I think we sometimes forget, that most of the adults in this discussion are STEM professionals in our own right who don't blink at titles like "Sex differences on the Progressive Matrices are influenced by sex differences on spatial ability" and "Emergence and Characterization of Sex Differences in Spatial Ability: A Meta-Analysis". We can understandably digest these articles relatively easily versus students or laypeople. Heck, I have undergraduate students that might mistakenly interpret the former's abstract as a physiological assertion, though I'd hope they then ask how the authors could've isolated physiology/genetics from environmental/experiential factors.

Anyway, no maliciousness meant. I hope this discussion is a learning experience for everyone, both on handling professional digital relationships and on scholarly discourse--regardless of your incoming or outgoing views.

[Lil' Lavery]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Siri again.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Ernst

Yeah, neither are any of the sources that page cites:

(((a bunch of sources)))

Citing a source doesn't prevent conclusions drawn from those citations from being false, nor does it mean the authors of the article citing these sources are without bias. For one example, see the anfrcguy post earlier in this thread - it cites two papers, but then draws a conclusion that cannot necessarily be supported by those papers. The post isn't automatically accurate (or inaccurate) because of those citations, and neither is the Wikipedia article.

Wikipedia is a generally pretty good first pass source for knowledge, but if you are interested in scientific claims you should base those not on the Wikipedia article but on the studies directly that the article points to.