Districts vs. Traditional Debate 8/16 830pm EST

[gpetilli]

I personally think both systems work, BUT the mixed system we have is broken. Teams in the regional areas cant attend district events, but teams in districts can attend regionals. This creates major issues with regional teams getting closed out of events. To make matters worse, some of these district teams are attending four or more events and regional teams have trouble getting into two.

I would like to see at least one of the following implemented.

1) District teams can not register for regional events. They can be placed on a standby list and are notified two weeks before the event if there is room. Regional waiting list takes priority over the District standby list.

2) Limit of three season events for all teams. (this levels the playing field for poorly funded teams that cant afford more than one event)

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by gpetilli

1) District teams can not register for regional events. They can be placed on a standby list and are notified two weeks before the event if there is room. Regional waiting list takes priority over the District standby list.

While they are given more than two weeks' notice, teams from districts can only register for regional events well after everyone in regionals has gotten a chance to register for a second event, and thus they would be further back on the waitlist normally than regional teams.

[EricDrost]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

While they are given more than two weeks' notice, teams from districts can only register for regional events well after everyone in regionals has gotten a chance to register for a second event, and thus they would be further back on the waitlist normally than regional teams.

Not in every case. We were invited to Palmetto 2016 on Feb 16 to attend on Feb 24

It's not always in the RPC's control when they can fill from the waitlist -- sometimes a team drops with 9 days until the event.

If you only give teams two weeks as a rule, it will be nearly impossible for some teams (such as those that operate within a strict school district) to mobilize. I know we weren't able to push a trip through in 8 days, but 14 would have been similar.

[nikeairmancurry]

Originally Posted by EricDrost

Not in every case. We were invited to Palmetto 2016 on Feb 16 to attend on Feb 24

It's not always in the RPC's control when they can fill from the waitlist -- sometimes a team drops with 9 days until the event.

If you only give teams two weeks as a rule, it will be nearly impossible for some teams (such as those that operate within a strict school district) to mobilize. I know we weren't able to push a trip through in 8 days, but 14 would have been similar.

I believe the original intent of gpetilli post and Chris is me's reply was to state that regional teams should have first dibs on regional events registration. Chris just stated that this is how it works currently.

Waitlists are a different issue.

[Brian Maher]

Disclaimer: the contents of this post are my personal opinions and do not reflect the opinions of the mentors or students of teams 1257 or 2791 who are not me.

Originally Posted by IKE

Are 2nd pick winners being cheated in district system? Some will not advance to Worlds even though they won an event.

District Perspective

I have firsthand experience as one of those second pick winners in the district system, with 1257 at the 2014 Clifton District Event.

Do I feel cheated about not qualifying for Worlds then and there? Heck no. I will be the first to tell you that our status as the second pick of the winning second alliance did not demonstrate that we were capable of competing at anywhere near a World Championship level. We were picked for defense. Our robot barely touched the ball during elims, because we had no manipulator of any kind. We were just a reasonably well-driven drivebase.

One of my favorite aspects of the district model is the District Championship. It exists as an intermediate level for teams to prove themselves. For the most part, if a team wins an event, they will qualify for their DCMP. While it is challenging to plan for a DCMP trip on short notice, it is nowhere near the challenge of planning for STL. Once a team is there, if they have a less-impressive District Event record, they can prove that they deserve to compete at Worlds by performing well at the higher level of play. Conversely, if a team had a strong record at the District level, an okay showing at the DCMP will often lock in their spot.

With our newly attached catapult and some luck, we were able to rank #2 at the MAR Championship. We lost in quarterfinals to a well-constructed #7 alliance. We did not qualify for Champs.

Being able to compete with so many teams we looked up to and facing the challenge of earning a spot at Champs made MAR Champs 2014 (especially after going unpicked at both of our 2013 events) such an amazing experience for our team. It was far better than receiving an invitation to and event we would have been slaughtered at, or had to decline due to financial concerns. To this day, it has been far the single most inspiring event I've ever been to. It made me want to learn all I could about FRC, to help get my team back to DCMP and someday to Worlds. I am grateful for that District Championship; it's what got me hooked on FIRST.

This season, with consistent success at our MAR events, 1257 was ready to compete at Worlds. While we were close in 2014 and 2015, we did not have Championship-caliber robots. If we had made it to Champs, I would have felt like we were a fluke.

To reinforce my point of District Championships serving as a chance for teams to prove themselves, here are a few examples from MAR this year:

• 5624: winning first pick at both their district events, ranked 48 / 60 and unpicked at MAR Champs. Qualified for Worlds due to their success in district play.
• 1712: second pick of quarterfinalist #7 alliance and second pick of semifinalist #5 alliance at their district events; they demonstrated they could play at a high level at MAR Champs, captaining the #7 alliance to upset the #2 alliance. Qualified for Worlds on the strength of their MAR CMP showing, and captained the #6 alliance on Hopper.

TL;DR: District Championships exist as a chance for teams to be inspired and to prove themselves before qualifying for CMP.

Regional Perspective

I'd like to tweak IKE's question to illustrate the flip side of the coin:

Are semifinalist captains and first picks being cheated in regional system? Some will not advance to Worlds even though they may be among the most competitive robots at the event.

While I do not want to sound hostile, I want to show that the exact opposite question can also be asked about regional teams who may feel "cheated".

As a transplant from the district to the regional model, it strikes me as counter-intuitive how often competitive robots miss Champs because they were not on the right alliance to make it to finals.

I do not intend to insinuate that the teams who qualified for Champs at 2791's events, or other events, did not deserve it or their playoff achievements.

My proposed solution, while it is not perfect, is to award wildcards based on District Points earned at the event, not finalist alliance position. The District Points system encompasses all facets of the competition: qualification matches, alliance selection, playoff results, and awards. FIRST trusts this system to recognize achievement in districts. Why won't they at regionals?

TL;DR: It is also essential to ask if the current system is fair to regional teams with good robots, and district points should be used to give wildcards.

Two Questions for the FUN Crew

Is the district model more effective at advancing competitive teams, particularly strong semifinalist captains and first picks?

Is the Finalist Alliance position the best criterion for awarding wildcards, or should it be based on a more holistic approach such as the District Point rubric?

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by BMSOTM

District Perspective
With our newly attached catapult and some luck, we were able to rank #2 at the MAR Championship. We lost in quarterfinals to a well-constructed #7 alliance. We did not qualify for Champs.

"Well-constructed" alliance is a funny way of saying "3 of the 4 best robots in MAR that year"

Regional Perspective

My proposed solution, while it is not perfect, is to award wildcards based on District Points earned at the event, not finalist alliance position. The District Points system encompasses all facets of the competition: qualification matches, alliance selection, playoff results, and awards. FIRST trusts this system to recognize achievement in districts. Why won't they at regionals?

Me gusta

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard

"Well-constructed" alliance is a funny way of saying "3 of the 4 best robots in MAR that year"

As someone who competed in MAR that season, "3 of the 4 best known teams" would be a more accurate description of that alliance. Despite the names involved, that was not some unstoppable powerhouse allowed to form via lack of scouting by other alliance captains. 2590 declined the #1 seed (and was definitely one of the best teams in MAR in 2014), but there were legitimate reasons the other members of that alliance "fell" to the #7 seed. Many of the teams selected before them could be very easily justified.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

As someone who competed in MAR that season, "3 of the 4 best known teams" would be a more accurate description of that alliance. Despite the names involved, that was not some unstoppable powerhouse allowed to form via lack of scouting by other alliance captains. 2590 declined the #1 seed (and was definitely one of the best teams in MAR in 2014), but there were legitimate reasons the other members of that alliance "fell" to the #7 seed. Many of the teams selected before them could be very easily justified.

Sorry for dragging this off-topic. I'd stand by my statement anyway, having played with 341 at FLR and watched 2590 in Archimedes, but if you want to continue this discussion, we can do it in PM's. I do understand that some of those teams were having issues and not playing their best, etc, at the time, and I've talked to some people making decisions there, and most of those picks were super reasonable.

Anyway on the regionals/districts discussion, I think that places like New York are having difficulty with areas around the state going to districts, and that something needs to change quickly about how regional and district teams interact or New York is going to have a very difficult time competing.

[Katie_UPS]

Can the guests speak to how low-resource teams deal with last-minute invites to DCMP and CMP? While I'm pro-districts, I feel like additional and last minute steps for getting to champs are a barrier of entry to teams who operate on shoe-string budget/don't have enough industry around to gain the sponsorship to afford the additional registration fees + travel/lodging.

[Tyler Olds]

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

Can the guests speak to how low-resource teams deal with last-minute invites to DCMP and CMP? While I'm pro-districts, I feel like additional and last minute steps for getting to champs are a barrier of entry to teams whom operate on shoe-string budget/don't have enough industry around to gain the sponsorship to afford the additional registration fees + travel/lodging.

Absolutely this is a great discussion topic. Thank you for your submissions everyone, please keep them coming as I will be working on our show doc this weekend.

- Tyler

Also our new website is up and running with a different provider. Still have a couple tweaks to make but check it out.

[avanboekel]

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

Can the guests speak to how low-resource teams deal with last-minute invites to DCMP and CMP? While I'm pro-districts, I feel like additional and last minute steps for getting to champs are a barrier of entry to teams whom operate on shoe-string budget/don't have enough industry around to gain the sponsorship to afford the additional registration fees + travel/lodging.

How is this different from teams qualifying for CMP at week 6 regionals?

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by avanboekel

How is this different from teams qualifying for CMP at week 6 regionals?

Well, for one, there are some DCMPs in week 7.

Yes, there are some regional teams who deal with a similar turnaround. But that's a smaller portion than the vast majority of district teams who do not know whether or not they'll have a CMP bid until a couple weeks before CMP. And many district teams also have to deal with that turnaround prior to DCMP, which in many districts involves a mere 3 day turnaround between finding out if you got in and being at the event.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by avanboekel

How is this different from teams qualifying for CMP at week 6 regionals?

In 2016, 6 regionals were held in week 6. This included 348 teams in total*.

For districts, there were 3 DCMP in week 6, and 5 in week 7. With 451 teams attending, representing 1169 teams.

There's a difference in expectations, too - regional teams signing up for a week 6 event know MONTHS in advance that they're competing at that event and the hassles involved. Teams in districts may know the hassles involved, but they find out the week before if they are competing in the event, and then more than half of them have 1 week less to plan for champs than the regionals should they earn a spot.

The end result is a significantly larger pool of teams making last minute plans for Champs than we had in 2008 (even when you account for program growth), before districts started.

I'd be interested in hearing views on how this shift over the past 8 years towards late-qualifying events has impacted teams, and how the guest speakers view District's impact in this shift.


* In all fairness, 123 of those teams came from 2 MN regionals... MN events have unfortunately always (for the past 9 years) had a significant impact with some late-qualifying events.

[Jscout11]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

As someone who competed in MAR that season, "3 of the 4 best known teams" would be a more accurate description of that alliance. Despite the names involved, that was not some unstoppable powerhouse allowed to form via lack of scouting by other alliance captains. 2590 declined the #1 seed (and was definitely one of the best teams in MAR in 2014), but there were legitimate reasons the other members of that alliance "fell" to the #7 seed. Many of the teams selected before them could be very easily justified.

Edit*: Sorry for off topic, just wanted to comment on this

I will agree with this. Being heavily involved with that alliance, I think its strength came from the ability of each team to work together so well. Our coaches and drivers already had a lot of experience working with each other, and the result was an alliance greater than the sum of its parts. Also, it certainly was not an easy road to a banner at all.

[marshall]

I just wanna say we have the best districts in NC, fantastic districts, amazing districts, simply the best districts. Everybody loves our districts, OK. And let me tell you folks, we've got the best volunteers working our districts, they are the greatest. The surrounding regionals just can't compare folks, districts are that much better. Smart people tell me that districts are better. Districts are like nothing you've ever seen before. Let's make FRC great again everyone, lets move to districts.