Moving Championships back

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Your seniors leave just because they graduate? You might want to fix that. After spending 6 weeks building, and another 8 weeks competing and iterating why would you not go to world's just because you graduated?

There are possibly a number of reasons:

Summer job, getting a head start on college, taking a break from school (hey, if you had a chance to get out of there, you'd take it, right? ), or just plain school policies. I believe that someone noted above that schools may not allow alumni to be treated as students, or support the team at all after the end of the school year.

Also, there's a very gray area with respect to the rules of the competition, for any seniors on the drive team that might graduate before a May Champs event: Drivers and HPs are pre-college by definition. Whether that includes students who have graduated high school and have yet to attend college has not been asked, as far as I know; should the move happen I'm sure someone will think to ask the question.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by bkahl

As stated above, many school districts would prohibit* graduated seniors from traveling on school sponsored trips. In that case, the seniors would not choose to leave, but would not be allowed to travel to worlds.

So then lets call the graduated seniors mentors. Or why not just have the graduated seniors attend without going through the school.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

So then lets call the graduated seniors mentors. Or why not just have the graduated seniors attend without going through the school.

I'm not sure you quite understand the massive school-politics pitfalls involved with either suggestion.

The second suggestion is more straightforwards: That's always an option. But, that would mean that they'd be traveling on their own dime, in most cases--the school wouldn't be able (er, willing) to help out; in some cases that could also mean that the team wouldn't be able to help out. That alone would probably drop a number of graduated students.

The first suggestion has a large impact on team finances and dynamics. OK, so you graduated. You are now a mentor. That means that instead of bunking with 3 other persons in the room, you get only 1. That means that the number of rooms needed for those seniors doubles--and the cost to have those rooms doubles. (This would be driven by school and team policies, mind you, but that's a pretty typical breakdown.) Better be good at fundraising.

And the team dynamics part... Let's put it this way, could YOU mentor a team, as a MENTOR (including all roles filled by the mentors), and have the students that were your peers two weeks ago treat you as a mentor? I doubt it--there are very few people that could make that sort of transition that quickly and easily. So as the seniors find their new roles with the team, there's bound to be some, shall we say, establishment of the pecking order--which would have an unfortunate tendency to create friction within the team that doesn't need to be there.

Could it be done, sure. Is it going to be more hassle than it's worth, probably.



I actually had something similar in college--but in that case, most of the team was seniors and this was the senior project, and as an engineering competition team sponsored by the school, we weren't the only team competing after the end of the semester so they're somewhat used to that sort of thing. I'd figure that most high schools shut down their teams after graduation and only resume them for preseason conditioning workouts.

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Your seniors leave just because they graduate? You might want to fix that. After spending 6 weeks building, and another 8 weeks competing and iterating why would you not go to world's just because you graduated?

My point was that they may not be allowed to travel as part of the team, as described earlier - we have not investigated this issue. Events that are outside of the school year are not under close observation by the school board, but if we were to go to CMP after the last day of school for seniors but before the last day of school for everyone else, we would probably have difficulty with them using team transportation and lodging, at the very least. We have also had several seniors who went to basic taining or another job very close to their graduation, so close as to miss the team banquet in May.

Edit - Oh wow, how ninja'd on this. Slidell does not have any college or University. Most of our graduates pursuing STEM degrees go to LA Tech in Ruston (5 hours away), with UL Lafayette a second choice (3 hours away). LSU, SEL, and UNO are closer, but are all better known here as party or liberal arts colleges. We have never had a veteran mentor attend more than a score of team meetings after graduation. The best we've had was Gixxy, the team founder (also my son), who mentored the summer following graduation, and the next summer, and also attended a few other meetings that fell during LA Tech holidays. My best estimate for him is 16. Otherwise, I cannot think of any who have come back for more than about six meetings, certainly not to provide any real mentoring. Slidell is a bedroom community, and while there are those few whose family has been here for five or more generations, most of us arrived in the last sixty years. (In the case of the Michels, we moved to Slidell in June 2001, just fifteen years ago). I do not expect any of my children to live in Slidell in 2025.

[Harrison.Smith]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

A later end to the season is not such a crazy idea--can we say "spring sports?" Almost every high school in the US has state championship events i late May and early June. (I think Texas may be an exception with mid-May championships, but Texas can just decide to secede if this is a problem ;^)). All of those athletes are studying for final exams (and the distance runners and swimmers have GPAs that are just as good).

As for FRC state champs, don't you think that they'd just swap the dates to early May or late April instead to fill the void?

As for post-school championships, there are many national sports championships held in June and July. But there may be a problem with schools covering team expenses. On the other hand, how many FRC programs are formally embedded into schools the same way that sports teams are? In my experience, they run like clubs, and many musical and performing arts clubs have summer tours.

I meant robotics state champs (MO, MN, OH, CT, maybe Texas next year), but other sports is a good point. While with most spring sports in Texas the state champs are the 2nd and 3rd week of May, baseball and softball are after the school year ended. Seniors on those teams were able to travel and compete.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by Harrison.Smith

I meant robotics state champs (MO, MN, OH, CT, maybe Texas next year), but other sports is a good point. While with most spring sports in Texas the state champs are the 2nd and 3rd week of May, baseball and softball are after the school year ended. Seniors on those teams were able to travel and compete.

'Texas is stupid *you all guys* do things differently and wrong' (as stated by a texan) (please don't kill me texans )

[R2D2DOC]

Just some thoughts for your consideration. . . . some observations. . . .that's all.

The objective was to spread FIRST to all high schools. That's a good reason for districts, and associated district championships. To provide a CMP experience to as many as possible, multiple CMP events are required. So, FIRST is going through growth pains. The program may need to settle with a mix of districts and regionals based on team density and logistics. Some new rules of district-regional crossover would need to be established. Multiple CMPs may be the "new normal". I was a mentor for two years in regionals and two years of districts in Michigan. I have been a judge ever since (districts, district CMP and World CMP), it's a new normal.

If a single CMP is desired, the season must be longer to accommodate an extra tier of playoff events. Difficult since FIRST is international. I'm not sure of how many high school based team based sports have a national championship, let alone, a world championship. Little League Baseball is over the summer anyway.

The issue of a longer season is the issue of this thread. All sights appear to be on the end of the season. What about the beginning? This would place more pressure on the GDC. Make the games a little easier so the build season could be reduced, giving more flexibility at the end of season.

Kick-off in December is not practical, although, a number of high school activities already may start in some form over the holidays, such as spring musicals (set building, auditions). This may be unpopular, but there are already challenges during the build/competition seasons as it is. Could this alleviate some of that pressure?

Again, just some ideas to consider, and nothing more.

[SpaceBiz]

It is probably worth mentioning that as a distance runner my coach would definitely make me choose between robotics and outdoor track if champs impacted the running championship season. It is already hard enough to convince him champs is more important than one of our midseason invitationals. Granted the real distance running season is cross country, but that is another story.

[Knufire]

If a longer competition season is required, I think it would be more practical to start build season earlier. Do kickoff around December 1st, bag robots over Christmas break, and resume in January. For 2016-2017, I'd say Kickoff on Dec 3rd, Sprint 1 from Dec 3rd to Dec 19th, and Sprint 2 from Jan 3rd to 31st.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by EricH

I'm not sure you quite understand the massive school-politics pitfalls involved with either suggestion.

The second suggestion is more straightforwards: That's always an option. But, that would mean that they'd be traveling on their own dime, in most cases--the school wouldn't be able (er, willing) to help out; in some cases that could also mean that the team wouldn't be able to help out. That alone would probably drop a number of graduated students.

Good point. Intentionally violating or going going school policies will lead to bad relations with the school administration. Never a good thing.

We could just shorten build season to 4 weeks. (or not.)

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

As for FRC state champs, don't you think that they'd just swap the dates to early May or late April instead to fill the void?

State Championships (like MN, OH, TX) are unofficial, off-season events. In order to move them up, FIRST would have to allow teams to unbag their robots for them, and then rebag them for Champs, something that currently would not be allowed.

So, would that be fair to teams in areas without State Championships?

[Drakxii]

If we need/want a longer season I think the best option would be to move the kickoff to mid October, Bag & Tag to mid December, start regionals & district events in January, have District Champs on what is now week one and then have worlds champs in what is now week 4 & 5. This way there are gaps between events and champs for both levels.

This way no trouble with AP tests or finals and state champs can be held during the school year.

One issue with this idea is that FTC season would have to start sooner or be shortened as they have their super regionals in march currently and I am not sure about the FLL season schedule.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

So, would that be fair to teams in areas without State Championships?

The concept of 'fair' left the building a loooong time ago.

Also: I would be in favor of a shortened build season. Four may be a bit aggressive; perhaps five weeks?

[Cothron Theiss]

Originally Posted by Knufire

If a longer competition season and is required, I think it would be more practical to start build season earlier. Do kickoff around December 1st, bag robots over Christmas break, and resume in January. For 2016-2017, I'd say Kickoff on Dec 3rd, Sprint 1 from Dec 3rd to Dec 19th, and Spring 2 from Jan 3rd to 31st.

This is probably the best suggestion I've seen. This does mean that northern teams will be fighting against snow, but we already see that quite a bit. Once football season completely ends (most state championships are around mid to late November if I remember correctly) the winter sports are just getting started. This may even make things easier on student athletes, because their coaches might be more lenient if build season is at the beginning of the winter season and not the end.

[efoote868]

Maybe FIRST could grow so big that AP testing has to schedule around them...