[FRC Blog] 2017 Einsteins and More

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by asid61

I think that was the rule before, but because the globe got kickoff at the same time, Hawaii was able to get basically 20 hours of extra work time. It makes more sense to have it this way so that all teams stop at the same time.

To be clear here, Hawaii got 20 hours more than the teams in Sydney, AUS. Not 20 hours more than most of the US.

Up until recently, it was +/- a few hours for most teams. Hawaii got 6 more hours than the east coast teams, Israeli teams got 10 fewer hours, but the vast majority of teams are pretty close. With FRC expanding rapidly globally with Australia and now China hosting regionals, in addition to Israel expanding, it's only natural to make this change. Yes it may end at an inconvenient time for some teams. Kickoff is also at an inconvenient time for some teams. In the end, everyone gets the same amount of calendar time, which means everyone should have roughly the same amount of "reasonable time" working hours.

This is a good change.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54

To be clear here, Hawaii got 20 hours more than the teams in Sydney, AUS. Not 20 hours more than most of the US.

Up until recently, it was +/- a few hours for most teams. Hawaii got 6 more hours than the east coast teams, Israeli teams got 10 fewer hours, but the vast majority of teams are pretty close. With FRC expanding rapidly globally with Australia and now China hosting regionals, in addition to Israel expanding, it's only natural to make this change. Yes it may end at an inconvenient time for some teams. Kickoff is also at an inconvenient time for some teams. In the end, everyone gets the same amount of calendar time, which means everyone should have roughly the same amount of "reasonable time" working hours.

This is a good change.

Actually it was 5 hours difference from the East Coast and 2 hours difference from you folks on the West Coast.
Its been awhile since we ever finished late on a Tuesday since during most seasons, our robot was being shipped out that day or the next. We do a lot of Week 1 events.

[AllenGregoryIV]

I feel like this was a made up problem. International teams traveling are already at an inconvenience having to ship out early and things like Glen just said (I know Hawaii isn't international). Most of the other teams are competing with people from their timezone or very near it anyway for their regionals and by championships a few hours probably doesn't matter anyway. I don't know of any team that uses every hour of build season, if you want an extra few hours, show up earlier or stay later through out the season. Many can't fully utilize the "extra" build time they did have since it was so early in the morning on kickoff anyway or will now be late at night/morning on bag day.

Teams that compete at more events have more time with their robot and teams with practice robots have more time as well. We are trying to make an unfair system appear more fair but with very little actual consequence. Why? Let's get rid of Stop Build already and actually start to see improvements.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

We are trying to make an unfair system appear more fair but with very little actual consequence.

I agree that it tries to make an unfair system appear more fair, but in actuality, it makes it more unfair. Time on stop build day is much more valuable for the majority of teams, compared to any other time in build season. Under the old system, teams get more or less time on kickoff day, but the same amount of time on stop build day. Under the new system, teams that get more time on kickoff get less time on stop build day, which is not even close to an even trade.

[FrankJ]

Frank is messing with you. Bag and tag is being eliminated for 2017 in honor of the first water game.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

Frank is messing with you. Bag and tag is being eliminated for 2017 in honor of the first water game.

WHAT!?!?! I heard that it was mandatory, with a watertight seal on the bag, grounds of needing to keep most of the robot dry!

[Jaci]

In this thread: Non-International Teams saying a rule designed to help International Teams is "a solution to a non-problem".

Put it any way you want, but this is of huge help. As a member of teams from Australia (UTC+8, Perth, WA), these extra 12 hours mean a lot to us.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Joe Ross

I agree that it tries to make an unfair system appear more fair, but in actuality, it makes it more unfair. Time on stop build day is much more valuable for the majority of teams, compared to any other time in build season. Under the old system, teams get more or less time on kickoff day, but the same amount of time on stop build day. Under the new system, teams that get more time on kickoff get less time on stop build day, which is not even close to an even trade.

Are you talking about Hawaii and/or the difference between LA and NYC? Because this most drastically affects non-CONUS teams who live the other direction and get thus more time. Currently it's:
5AM in Honolulu
8AM in Los Angeles
11AM at FIRST HQ
12PM in Brasilia
4PM in London
5PM in Amsterdam
6PM in Tel Aviv and Istanbul
8:30PM in New Delhi
11PM in Beijing and Taipei
12AM in Tokyo (next day)
1AM in Canberra (next day)
Note this isn't accounting for daylight savings.

I love Hawaii too, but again I think this change is mostly looking east rather than west. West coast teams take a 3hr hit (5 for Hawaii) while international teams that already have enough challenges get multiple times that difference added on.

[jimbo493]

Heres a handy link to calculate when it will be in your time zone, due to the fact that we are in Daylight Savings right now it is an hour off, but when it matters we will not be, so that why its like that.

http://www.thetimezoneconverter.com/...ard%20Time) &

I guess if you want to see it with EDT heres that link too

http://www.thetimezoneconverter.com/...ght%20Time) &

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Actually it was 5 hours difference from the East Coast and 2 hours difference from you folks on the West Coast.
Its been awhile since we ever finished late on a Tuesday since during most seasons, our robot was being shipped out that day or the next. We do a lot of Week 1 events.

See I thought it was 2 hours, and then I Googled "time in Hawaii" and it's 3 hours behind us...and I forgot to factor in that you don't do the daylight savings time so it's shifted during build season.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54

Hawaii got 6 more hours than the east coast teams, Israeli teams got 10 fewer hours, but the vast majority of teams are pretty close.

[emphasis mine] This was my initial reaction. I suspect that despite the wording of the blog, this change is more about giving Israeli district teams more time rather than addressing some kind of unfairness with Hawaii. International teams have enough extra struggles that time zones pale in comparison.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Siri

[emphasis mine] This was my initial reaction. I suspect that despite the wording of the blog, this change is more about giving Israeli district teams more time rather than addressing some kind of unfairness with Hawaii. International teams have enough extra struggles that time zones pale in comparison.

Midnight EST is 7AM the following morning in Israel So sure, they get an extra 7 hours... but do you really think many of them are going to be working during that time? I know if my team was given those extra 7 hours, they would be wasted, as the mentors, parents, and school administration would want the kids to get some sleep on a school night!

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Midnight EST is 7AM the following morning in Israel So sure, they get an extra 7 hours... but do you really think many of them are going to be working during that time? I know if my team was given those extra 7 hours, they would be wasted, as the mentors, parents, and school administration would want the kids to get some sleep on a school night!

I don't expect these extra or lesser hours to be used any more than late-night stop build hours are already used; I doubt that anyone does. That doesn't mean the rule itself is ill-suited.