[FRC Blog] 2017 FIRST Championships Allocations for Districts

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Teams getting the "championship experience"


It may be a good thing text doesn't convey tone.

Listen I am from a team who could seriously benefit from going to Champs and one with 8 waitlist tokens.

We have been a team since 2009 and have never even come close to qualifying for Champs. Many members despite my best efforts still don't realize how big first really is. The experience of Champs would certainly seriously help our team.

The reason half Champs became a thing was to give more teams the Champs experience. Before this change district teams did have an easier time qualifying despite the wildcard change. Now it's pretty balanced. Don't forget waitlist tokens can go to regional and district teams.

Now I still support 1 Champs but, if we are going to have 2 let's have other teams like mine and maybe ones even farther away from breaking through get a taste of what's out there.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Listen I am from a team who could seriously benefit from going to Champs and one with 8 waitlist tokens.

We have been a team since 2009 and have never even come close to qualifying for Champs. Many members despite my best efforts still don't realize how big first really is. The experience of Champs would certainly seriously help our team.

The reason half Champs became a thing was to give more teams the Champs experience. Before this change district teams did have an easier time qualifying despite the wildcard change. Now it's pretty balanced. Don't forget waitlist tokens can go to regional and district teams.

Now I still support 1 Champs but, if we are going to have 2 let's have other teams like mine and maybe ones even farther away from breaking through get a taste of what's out there.

As far as I am aware admission to The Championship Event has been and will continue to be free.

[FarmerJohn]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Listen I am from a team who could seriously benefit from going to Champs and one with 8 waitlist tokens.

That's the problem with millennials these days!!! They think they deserve everything and that the world should be handed to them on a silver platter. Everyone wants a participation trophy because all that matters is that they "tried" and there's no such thing as "winners". Back in my day you didn't have a right to go to a championship, you had to earn your way there. When I coached my son's little league we never made it to the state championships because we weren't good enough. After four years of not qualifying do you think I complained that my team was missing out from the "championship experience" because they weren't playing well enough? Of course not! We didn't need a championship to recognize the kids on our team and we sure didn't need one to inspire them. If you want to go to the championships then work harder, don't try and lessen the value of the championships by letting everyone in.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

As far as I am aware admission to The Championship Event has been and will continue to be free.

However, many teams and school districts consider that if you're not going to go to compete, you shouldn't go at all. Not all, but many. And it's not like the Championship has been within a few hours of NYC in the last 20 years--Orlando, Houston, Atlanta, St. Louis, St. Louis/Houston... It's hard enough to convince a district that you should go when you win your way there, imagine doing it without that win.

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

After four years of not qualifying do you think I complained that my team was missing out from the "championship experience" because they weren't playing well enough? Of course not! We didn't need a championship to recognize the kids on our team and we sure didn't need one to inspire them. If you want to go to the championships then work harder, don't try and lessen the value of the championships by letting everyone in.

Calm down. THIS Championship is about inspiration. If you're going to complain about non-competitive teams going, you need to start complaining to HQ. HQ has, for better or worse, determined that all teams should at least have the chance to go every 4 years on average, and has set up their systems to allow/encourage that. If it was all about the most competitive team, they'd have kept it locked down at 400 teams and tightened the selection criteria. Back before my time, all you had to do was register and go! Then once every team had a regional in reasonable range, you had to do a regional before you could do the nationals, but every team could go. And then they had to trim it down even more, so if you didn't win your way in and you were an even team, you could go in even years (and same for odd teams in odd years). Then they had to cut the qualification even more--now they want to make sure that everybody has a chance to go every 4 years. That's an HQ decision.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by EricH

However, many teams and school districts consider that if you're not going to go to compete, you shouldn't go at all. Not all, but many. And it's not like the Championship has been within a few hours of NYC in the last 20 years--Orlando, Houston, Atlanta, St. Louis, St. Louis/Houston... It's hard enough to convince a district that you should go when you win your way there, imagine doing it without that win.

The reality that a team that doesn't qualify for an event might find it difficult to attend an event, and the reality that admission to FRC events are free of charge are not mutually exclusive.

FIRST is not preventing 2869 from attending the event, but they are going to make the chance of the 27th best team in Chesapeake more difficult than the 41st team in the PNW, even though CHS is 85% the roster count as PNW.

I've accepted that someone has poured water all over my cereal, but they didn't have to pee in it too.

[Christopher149]

The decision to calculate the percentage based on teams only in the geographic region of your Champ definitely helps MI logistics-wise.

Without the change, MI would send about 411/3130*804 = 105 teams to NorthCMP, or more teams than at MSC the last couple years. With that change and the 10% one, it's only 79 teams qualifying, so MSC is not irrelevant in qualifying to NorthCMP.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

That's the problem with millennials these days!!! . . . If you want to go to the championships then work harder, don't try and lessen the value of the championships by letting everyone in.

It's hard to tell if this is sarcasm, but I don't think Sperkowski is even a Millennial. I am, and I'm at least 10 years older than he is.
Anyway, if you think the CMP has the same purpose as a little league championship, you may want to read up a bit on what FIRST's goals are. However much you might want it to be about earning your way, FIRST doesn't want that.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Monochron

It's hard to tell if this is sarcasm, but I don't think Sperkowski is even a Millennial. I am, and I'm at least 10 years older than he is.
Anyway, if you think the CMP has the same purpose as a little league championship, you may want to read up a bit on what FIRST's goals are. However much you might want it to be about earning your way, FIRST doesn't want that.

What is FIRST's stated purpose of the CMP(s)?

If FIRST "doesn't want [it to be about earning your way], how come over 75% of teams will earn there way to a CMP in 2017?

FIRST said somewhere that they want every FRC team to have the opportunity to attend CMP once every four years. What does that matter if CMP is too expensive for lower resource teams to attend? Will FIRST reduce the registration cost ever?

What are the reasons for FRC wait list spots, but no other FIRST or VEX program to my knowledge intentionally preserves this percentage of wait list spots for their culminating events?

Things to think about. I think there are plenty of ways to skin a cat, with or without tons of wait list spots at CMP.

-Mike

[MechEng83]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

What are the reasons for FRC wait list spots, but no other FIRST or VEX program to my knowledge intentionally preserves this percentage of wait list spots for their culminating events?

I've heard rumors that FTC will be expanding slots (since now there's 2 half-champs) but rather than increase the number of teams qualifying into/out of the super-regionals, they will do a waitlist. Just a rumor though...

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

That's the problem with millennials these days!!! They think they deserve everything and that the world should be handed to them on a silver platter. Everyone wants a participation trophy because all that matters is that they "tried" and there's no such thing as "winners". Back in my day you didn't have a right to go to a championship, you had to earn your way there. When I coached my son's little league we never made it to the state championships because we weren't good enough. After four years of not qualifying do you think I complained that my team was missing out from the "championship experience" because they weren't playing well enough? Of course not! We didn't need a championship to recognize the kids on our team and we sure didn't need one to inspire them. If you want to go to the championships then work harder, don't try and lessen the value of the championships by letting everyone in.

I can't tell if this is a joke, but "back in the day" you could simple just buy your way into CMP. Waitlist wasn't even a thing until like the 2000s.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

What is FIRST's stated purpose of the CMP(s)?

If FIRST "doesn't want [it to be about earning your way], how come over 75% of teams will earn there way to a CMP in 2017?

FIRST said somewhere that they want every FRC team to have the opportunity to attend CMP once every four years. What does that matter if CMP is too expensive for lower resource teams to attend? Will FIRST reduce the registration cost ever?

What are the reasons for FRC wait list spots, but no other FIRST or VEX program to my knowledge intentionally preserves this percentage of wait list spots for their culminating events?

Things to think about. I think there are plenty of ways to skin a cat, with or without tons of wait list spots at CMP.

-Mike

What FIRST wants and how FIRST executes plans to satisfy those wants are different discussions. I think it is safe to say that part of FIRST's purpose for CMP is to allow teams to participate regardless of "ability":

Originally Posted by FRC Blog

FIRST HQ values the opportunity for non-qualified teams to attend FIRST Championship

I don't think it's a leap to say that FIRST uses waitlist spots, in part, to help make this happen.

While I don't always agree with FIRST's methods, I don't think that FarmerJohn relating the CMP to a little league championship was as accurate as it could have been because of FIRST's position on CMP. And I think going after Sperkowski for looking forward to taking advantage of one of FIRST's mechanisms for attending was a little much. FarmerJohn's expectations about what CMP is don't seem to align with the expectations that FIRST is trying to set.

If people want FIRST to change what CMP is then that is a different discussion than what I was getting at. A good discussion that I think should continue to happen, but not what I was getting at.

[asid61]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

What is FIRST's stated purpose of the CMP(s)?

If FIRST "doesn't want [it to be about earning your way], how come over 75% of teams will earn there way to a CMP in 2017?

FIRST said somewhere that they want every FRC team to have the opportunity to attend CMP once every four years. What does that matter if CMP is too expensive for lower resource teams to attend? Will FIRST reduce the registration cost ever?

What are the reasons for FRC wait list spots, but no other FIRST or VEX program to my knowledge intentionally preserves this percentage of wait list spots for their culminating events?

Things to think about. I think there are plenty of ways to skin a cat, with or without tons of wait list spots at CMP.

-Mike

IMO, FIRST is trying to give all teams the opportunity to attend Champs, but it's not their responsibility to pay for it. FIRST has extended a hand to those teams to give them the chance, as long as they can afford it, which I think is fair. That also might explain why the Champs lotto tickets stack up; lower resource teams that can't afford it one year will be more likely to be able to go in the future when they can afford it. And frankly, if a team can't afford to go to Champs many years in a row, I think Vex or FTC might be a better fit anyway.
I don't have the facts about how often Vex and FTC teams cannot afford the cost of attending their championship events in addition to building the bot, but I would wager it's a lot lower.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by asid61

IMO, FIRST is trying to give all teams the opportunity to attend Champs, but it's not their responsibility to pay for it. FIRST has extended a hand to those teams to give them the chance, as long as they can afford it, which I think is fair. That also might explain why the Champs lotto tickets stack up; lower resource teams that can't afford it one year will be more likely to be able to go in the future when they can afford it. And frankly, if a team can't afford to go to Champs many years in a row, I think Vex or FTC might be a better fit anyway.
I don't have the facts about how often Vex and FTC teams cannot afford the cost of attending their championship events in addition to building the bot, but I would wager it's a lot lower.

Don Bossi, president of First, disagrees with you somewhat. His comments here.

[Dominick Ferone]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Listen I am from a team who could seriously benefit from going to Champs and one with 8 waitlist tokens.

We have been a team since 2009 and have never even come close to qualifying for Champs. Many members despite my best efforts still don't realize how big first really is. The experience of Champs would certainly seriously help our team.

The reason half Champs became a thing was to give more teams the Champs experience. Before this change district teams did have an easier time qualifying despite the wildcard change. Now it's pretty balanced. Don't forget waitlist tokens can go to regional and district teams.

Now I still support 1 Champs but, if we are going to have 2 let's have other teams like mine and maybe ones even farther away from breaking through get a taste of what's out there.

Could it also be your team has turned down a waitlist spot?
I know some teams where every other year they got to champs on waitlist, and last year they even declined the spot because they said it wasn't worth it to waste all that money when they didn't preform well.
While everyone does deserve to go not everyone could afford it. There's a team the competes in upstate NY that can barely afford 1 regional and a robot.
They decline their championship spot every time, even with a successful season. Maybe with the Detroit championship it could become a little easier for them to attend. But it always comes down to cost and if the sponsors or school district could offer help or not.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Dominick Ferone

Could it also be your team has turned down a waitlist spot?
I know some teams where every other year they got to champs on waitlist, and last year they even declined the spot because they said it wasn't worth it to waste all that money when they didn't preform well.
While everyone does deserve to go not everyone could afford it. There's a team the competes in upstate NY that can barely afford 1 regional and a robot.
They decline their championship spot every time, even with a successful season. Maybe with the Detroit championship it could become a little easier for them to attend. But it always comes down to cost and if the sponsors or school district could offer help or not.

Last year was the first year we actually attempted to be on the waitlist. In the years past we did not have the needed money to do so. Now we do. Honestly the best thing I think could happen to the waitlist in order to achieve every team at Champs every 4 years is to get rid of the lottery and just go by tokens. I know some people may hate this but I think it aligns with first hq's goals the best.