[FRC Blog] 2017 FIRST Championships Allocations for Districts

[Ernst]

Originally Posted by logank013

So because we have so many more district teams in HalfChampsN compared to HalfChampsS, it causes less "new spots" to be distributed to each of the HalfChampsN districts?

Full Sarcasm Alert!: Can FIRST do us all a favor and send 3/4 of MI to half champs south? 201-60 = 141 and 88+60= 148. That'd make for a much better district distribution and would cause the same percentage increase of HalfChamps spots allocated to each district

I was curious about this.

Using 2016 numbers and accounting for 3114 of 3130 teams (there are 16 hiding somewhere):

North: 1766 teams
South: 1348 teams

That's including the US, Canada, Israel, China, Australia, Mexico, Brazil, and a few other smaller countries.

The blog post mentions

the formula for 2017 will use the percent representation of each District compared to the number of FRC teams just within the geography assigned to the District’s home Championship

So there's your answer.


I wonder how much FIRST looked at team counts before drawing the lines? Or if it was more based on population? Really populous states like Texas, California, and Florida are all in the south, but they're currently lagging behind many northern and eastern states in teams/person.

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by AGPapa

I am also not aware of any official record of how teams qualified.

Here is my recreation of how teams qualified. Note that it incorrectly includes DCMP winners as "District Points" spots.

Distinguishing waitlist teams from district points teams was tough. If a district got X points spots, then I took the top X teams from that district who did not already qualify. The rest were included as waitlist teams. There was usually a pretty clear cut off point.

Did the same for district points vs. waitlist. It'd be great if there were an official source for that information.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Monochron

It's hard to tell if this is sarcasm, but I don't think Sperkowski is even a Millennial. I am, and I'm at least 10 years older than he is.
Anyway, if you think the CMP has the same purpose as a little league championship, you may want to read up a bit on what FIRST's goals are. However much you might want it to be about earning your way, FIRST doesn't want that.

What is FIRST's stated purpose of the CMP(s)?

If FIRST "doesn't want [it to be about earning your way], how come over 75% of teams will earn there way to a CMP in 2017?

FIRST said somewhere that they want every FRC team to have the opportunity to attend CMP once every four years. What does that matter if CMP is too expensive for lower resource teams to attend? Will FIRST reduce the registration cost ever?

What are the reasons for FRC wait list spots, but no other FIRST or VEX program to my knowledge intentionally preserves this percentage of wait list spots for their culminating events?

Things to think about. I think there are plenty of ways to skin a cat, with or without tons of wait list spots at CMP.

-Mike

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by logank013

So because we have so many more district teams in HalfChampsN compared to HalfChampsS, it causes less "new spots" to be distributed to each of the HalfChampsN districts?

I recommend you sit down and do the math yourself for a few of the districts. For 2016, the simple equation was (<# teams in district>/<# total teams in first>) * 600. For 2017, it's (<# teams in district>/<#teams in region>) * 402 * .9. You can find some of these numbers to help you fill things in have been previously compiled on CD, if you do some searching.

Note that these equations have absolutely nothing to do with the number of district teams in each region, but rather the number of total teams in each region.

[MechEng83]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

What are the reasons for FRC wait list spots, but no other FIRST or VEX program to my knowledge intentionally preserves this percentage of wait list spots for their culminating events?

I've heard rumors that FTC will be expanding slots (since now there's 2 half-champs) but rather than increase the number of teams qualifying into/out of the super-regionals, they will do a waitlist. Just a rumor though...

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

That's the problem with millennials these days!!! They think they deserve everything and that the world should be handed to them on a silver platter. Everyone wants a participation trophy because all that matters is that they "tried" and there's no such thing as "winners". Back in my day you didn't have a right to go to a championship, you had to earn your way there. When I coached my son's little league we never made it to the state championships because we weren't good enough. After four years of not qualifying do you think I complained that my team was missing out from the "championship experience" because they weren't playing well enough? Of course not! We didn't need a championship to recognize the kids on our team and we sure didn't need one to inspire them. If you want to go to the championships then work harder, don't try and lessen the value of the championships by letting everyone in.

I can't tell if this is a joke, but "back in the day" you could simple just buy your way into CMP. Waitlist wasn't even a thing until like the 2000s.

[alectronic]

Originally Posted by Basel A

Did the same for district points vs. waitlist. It'd be great if there were an official source for that information.

I think there is, is this what you're talking about?

http://frc-districtrankings.usfirst.org/2016/NE/125

http://frc-districtrankings.usfirst.org/2016/FIM/2405

(examples) At the bottom of the page, in the red "corrections" box?

[logank013]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

I recommend you sit down and do the math yourself for a few of the districts. For 2016, the simple equation was (<# teams in district>/<# total teams in first>) * 600. For 2017, it's (<# teams in district>/<#teams in region>) * 402 * .9. You can find some of these numbers to help you fill things in have been previously compiled on CD, if you do some searching.

Note that these equations have absolutely nothing to do with the number of district teams in each region, but rather the number of total teams in each region.

That's actually my point. Indiana had 49 teams in 2016 where NC had 52 teams. Now that means in 2017 14/52 = 26.9% of teams from NC go to worlds where 10/49 = 20.4% of teams in IN get to go to worlds. All I'm saying is it's not the same % of each area going to worlds. I thought that was one of FIRST's points when they allocated spots to worlds.

Chesapeake 26/132 = 19.7%
Indiana = 10/49 = 20.4%
MI = 79/411 = 19.2%
MAR = 24/121 = 19.8%
NC = 14/52 = 26.9%
NE = 35/181 = 19.3%
PNW = 41/158 = 25.9%
PeachTree = 17/65 = 26.2%

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by logank013

That's actually my point. Indiana had 49 teams in 2016 where NC had 52 teams. Now that means in 2017 14/52 = 26.9% of teams from NC go to worlds where 10/49 = 20.4% of teams in IN get to go to worlds. All I'm saying is it's not the same % of each area going to worlds. I thought that was one of FIRST's points when they allocated spots to worlds.

Chesapeake 26/132 = 19.7%
Indiana = 10/49 = 20.4%
MI = 79/411 = 19.2%
MAR = 24/121 = 19.8%
NC = 14/52 = 26.9%
NE = 35/181 = 19.3%
PNW = 41/158 = 25.9%
PeachTree = 17/65 = 26.2%

Yes, but contrary to what you said earlier, that difference is NOT due to the number of districts or district teams feeding into each champs. It's due to a combination of the total number of teams in each region (North has about 200 teams more than South) and probably due to the number of available spots in each region - that number is not going to be the same for both champs, as the number of pre-qualified teams for both are different.

My point is, dig into why the numbers are the way they are, don't just make assumptions about the source of the difference. When you dig into the true root cause of the difference, then you can start looking at useful suggestions for improvements.

[MechEng83]

Originally Posted by Ernst

I was curious about this.

Using 2016 numbers and accounting for 3114 of 3130 teams (there are 16 hiding somewhere):

North: 1766 teams
South: 1348 teams

That's including the US, Canada, Israel, China, Australia, Mexico, Brazil, and a few other smaller countries.

The blog post mentions

So there's your answer.


I wonder how much FIRST looked at team counts before drawing the lines? Or if it was more based on population? Really populous states like Texas, California, and Florida are all in the south, but they're currently lagging behind many northern and eastern states in teams/person.

If you look at the 2017 vs 2018 distribution, it looks like the distributions are not quite as drastic long term.

Using 2016 numbers, there were 22 Kansas teams and 73 Missouri teams, which are part of the North Champs in 2017, but will be part of the South Champs in 2018.

Those 95 teams skew the balance. In 2018 the distribution, using Ernst's numbers would be:

North: 1671
South: 1443

I wonder if we can move another logical grouping of 114 teams to balance out the numbers!

P.S. This assumes that team growth is uniform throughout all of FIRSTdom, which Michigan has been ruining for a while now.

[AGPapa]

Originally Posted by alectronic

I think there is, is this what you're talking about?

http://frc-districtrankings.usfirst.org/2016/NE/125

http://frc-districtrankings.usfirst.org/2016/FIM/2405

(examples) At the bottom of the page, in the red "corrections" box?

I didn't notice that before, neat find! It should help to sort out the points and waitlist teams (I already noticed a mistake caused by a typo in my first sheet).

Unfortunately it's not comprehensive. Teams like 834 don't have that mark when they did qualify by the waitlist.

[Dominick Ferone]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Listen I am from a team who could seriously benefit from going to Champs and one with 8 waitlist tokens.

We have been a team since 2009 and have never even come close to qualifying for Champs. Many members despite my best efforts still don't realize how big first really is. The experience of Champs would certainly seriously help our team.

The reason half Champs became a thing was to give more teams the Champs experience. Before this change district teams did have an easier time qualifying despite the wildcard change. Now it's pretty balanced. Don't forget waitlist tokens can go to regional and district teams.

Now I still support 1 Champs but, if we are going to have 2 let's have other teams like mine and maybe ones even farther away from breaking through get a taste of what's out there.

Could it also be your team has turned down a waitlist spot?
I know some teams where every other year they got to champs on waitlist, and last year they even declined the spot because they said it wasn't worth it to waste all that money when they didn't preform well.
While everyone does deserve to go not everyone could afford it. There's a team the competes in upstate NY that can barely afford 1 regional and a robot.
They decline their championship spot every time, even with a successful season. Maybe with the Detroit championship it could become a little easier for them to attend. But it always comes down to cost and if the sponsors or school district could offer help or not.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

What is FIRST's stated purpose of the CMP(s)?

If FIRST "doesn't want [it to be about earning your way], how come over 75% of teams will earn there way to a CMP in 2017?

FIRST said somewhere that they want every FRC team to have the opportunity to attend CMP once every four years. What does that matter if CMP is too expensive for lower resource teams to attend? Will FIRST reduce the registration cost ever?

What are the reasons for FRC wait list spots, but no other FIRST or VEX program to my knowledge intentionally preserves this percentage of wait list spots for their culminating events?

Things to think about. I think there are plenty of ways to skin a cat, with or without tons of wait list spots at CMP.

-Mike

What FIRST wants and how FIRST executes plans to satisfy those wants are different discussions. I think it is safe to say that part of FIRST's purpose for CMP is to allow teams to participate regardless of "ability":

Originally Posted by FRC Blog

FIRST HQ values the opportunity for non-qualified teams to attend FIRST Championship

I don't think it's a leap to say that FIRST uses waitlist spots, in part, to help make this happen.

While I don't always agree with FIRST's methods, I don't think that FarmerJohn relating the CMP to a little league championship was as accurate as it could have been because of FIRST's position on CMP. And I think going after Sperkowski for looking forward to taking advantage of one of FIRST's mechanisms for attending was a little much. FarmerJohn's expectations about what CMP is don't seem to align with the expectations that FIRST is trying to set.

If people want FIRST to change what CMP is then that is a different discussion than what I was getting at. A good discussion that I think should continue to happen, but not what I was getting at.

[Brian Maher]

Originally Posted by AGPapa

I didn't notice that before, neat find! It should help to sort out the points and waitlist teams (I already noticed a mistake caused by a typo in my first sheet).

Unfortunately it's not comprehensive. Teams like 834 don't have that mark when they did qualify by the waitlist.

Are you sure that 834 was a waitlist team rather than points? I know that after declines 5624 made it on points (confirmed by their mentor, despite not being listed as such on the leaderboard) and 1989 was qualified at the same time, and 834 qualified shortly after 1989 dropped.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Dominick Ferone

Could it also be your team has turned down a waitlist spot?
I know some teams where every other year they got to champs on waitlist, and last year they even declined the spot because they said it wasn't worth it to waste all that money when they didn't preform well.
While everyone does deserve to go not everyone could afford it. There's a team the competes in upstate NY that can barely afford 1 regional and a robot.
They decline their championship spot every time, even with a successful season. Maybe with the Detroit championship it could become a little easier for them to attend. But it always comes down to cost and if the sponsors or school district could offer help or not.

Last year was the first year we actually attempted to be on the waitlist. In the years past we did not have the needed money to do so. Now we do. Honestly the best thing I think could happen to the waitlist in order to achieve every team at Champs every 4 years is to get rid of the lottery and just go by tokens. I know some people may hate this but I think it aligns with first hq's goals the best.