[FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

[Lil' Lavery]

I agree that the questions were confusing and difficult to parse. I hope this is only the first step in their (public) research process on this issue.


As this thread is starting to (d)evolve into a discussion of the actual possibility of eliminating bag day, I have one main thought on that. Nobody knows. Anyone who speaks with certainty on how the elimination of bag day would impact teams' robots, teams' performance, teams' mental health, teams' sustainability, or FRC as a whole is talking out their behind. At this point there's little more on conjecture. There are a multitude of factors in play, and almost certainly the elimination of bag day would impact different teams very differently. The bottom line is that we simply don't know. That doesn't mean we cannot pursue the change or that the change will be bad, but it does mean there's a lot of uncertainty.

[Ed Law]

The way the survey is written, I cannot think of a reason except the following

1) Hoping to confuse some people so with a large sample, the data will average out to the middle with both extreme. The conclusion will be inconclusive so we will keep things the same.
2) Questions are biased to educate/convince people to answer a certain way and hope for a certain outcome. The conclusion will be we will keep things the same.

If they really want to consider the possibility of a change, the survey will look very different.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Ed Law

The way the survey is written, I cannot think of a reason except the following

1) Hoping to confuse some people so with a large sample, the data will average out to the middle with both extreme. The conclusion will be inconclusive so we will keep things the same.
2) Questions are biased to educate/convince people to answer a certain way and hope for a certain outcome. The conclusion will be we will keep things the same.

If they really want to consider the possibility of a change, the survey will look very different.

3) They had someone very inexperienced write the survey

[Ed Law]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

3) They had someone very inexperienced write the survey

While I cannot argue that it is not a possibility, do you think something like this will go out to all the teams without management review and approval?

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Originally Posted by Ed Law

While I cannot argue that it is not a possibility, do you think something like this will go out to all the teams without management review and approval?

I probably can. I can easily see someone who is very busy looking it over quickly and going, "looks good to me." It's also very possible that FIRST doesn't take the surveys all that seriously and more so to get the general idea of what teams think of certain ideas.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

FTC has had equivalent rules for ages now. Don't even need to borrow it from VEX:



Obviously doesn't include all the subsystems stuff, but I'm not entirely sure that's necessary anyways.

Fun fact, the FTC rule was written way back in the day when it was still FVC (FIRST VEX Challenge). That same rule was used in the new VRC for a few years, however we adopted the subsystem breakdown in response to teams trying to find ways around the rule and switch between robots during a tournament. As always, a simple rule became more complicated and bulletproof in an effort to stop some edge cases.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Anyone who speaks with certainty on how the elimination of bag day would impact teams' robots, teams' performance, teams' mental health, teams' sustainability, or FRC as a whole is talking out their behind. At this point there's little more on conjecture. There are a multitude of factors in play, and almost certainly the elimination of bag day would impact different teams very differently.

I agree on this, for sure. (And the same for implementing districts, but that's another topic altogether.)

Speak for your own team, to the best of your knowledge--but expect to be wrong, and don't be surprised by someone else having a completely different experience. I'd put money on two teams in the same area answering completely differently because they're not the same team.

Just for my team... I really don't know. I think it'd help us on the field, but then I look at the students who got burned out last year and wonder if it wouldn't help us more if you had to "run what you brought".

[David Brinza]

Originally Posted by Ed Law

While I cannot argue that it is not a possibility, do you think something like this will go out to all the teams without management review and approval?

Have you used FIRST "updated" websites and on-line tools?
I cannot imagine they've been fully vetted and approved by management, given the difficulties encountered with new versions.

(It took me 3 attempts to get our W-9 form accepted in the new TIMS site this year.)

[edisler]

Ok, I agree, the survey was a bit one-sided, however, IMHO I would prefer to see bag and tag ended. Now I get that I may not have thought through of all of the repercussions but I really can't think of how I have been helped by this rule. As a rookie coach, in (less than) six weeks I had to not only deal with learning a bunch of technology that was unfamiliar but also how to be a good mentor to the kids. After a couple of years, I figured out that in order to be competitive I had to build two robots so that I could keep working on development after the deadline. Of course that means that we are spending twice as much for spare parts(If I can get them, after all, everyone else has to buy parts for two robots) and building 2 robots means that I am having to use our sponsor's shop to build twice as many parts as I really need.

During the meet season, well equipped teams are able to practice using their practice bot and use the 30 lb allowance to perfect the robot defects while smaller teams have to let their robots wait in the bag until meet day.

Isn't meet day a good enough deadline? What are the downsides to ending bag and tag day?

[roboruler]

Originally Posted by edisler

After a couple of years, I figured out that in order to be competitive I had to build two robots so that I could keep working on development after the deadline. Of course that means that we are spending twice as much for spare parts(If I can get them, after all, everyone else has to buy parts for two robots) and building 2 robots means that I am having to use our sponsor's shop to build twice as many parts as I really need.

I disagree, when we build practice bots, we build two identical robots and then remove mechanisms from the practice robot as spares for the main competition robot. This works fine for us. so there isn't actually a lot more fabrication and manufacturing of parts necessary, obviously there is a necessity for more control system parts etc. but you would normally bring spare control system parts to a competition anyway. If you design the robot to be disassembled easily your practice robots mechanism can easily serve as spare parts( within the 30lb withholding)

[DonShaw]

There needs to be a stop build day at some point or teams would enter the last possible events before states ( if a district model) to get more work time in on the robot. Teams that get a week one home event would be impacted by the lack of time.

In real world there are production deadlines at some point.

Just my fifty cents.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

As this thread is starting to (d)evolve into a discussion of the actual possibility of eliminating bag day, I have one main thought on that. Nobody knows. Anyone who speaks with certainty on how the elimination of bag day would impact teams' robots, teams' performance, teams' mental health, teams' sustainability, or FRC as a whole is talking out their behind. At this point there's little more on conjecture. There are a multitude of factors in play, and almost certainly the elimination of bag day would impact different teams very differently. The bottom line is that we simply don't know. That doesn't mean we cannot pursue the change or that the change will be bad, but it does mean there's a lot of uncertainty.

Nobody knows what the long term effects will be of the ending of the single Championship event either but the alleged benefits have been touted by management and its supporters. The fact that accessibility has been increased from 400 FRC teams to 800 FRC teams is a fact that holds as much water as the fact that eliminating bag day can provide up to more than double the hands on time with the machine teams build during the season. Whether or not the sum of unintended consequences in both an already executed decision and the one being surveyed yields a net benefit remains to be seen.

FIRST is an organization made up of many parties of stakeholders that can barely be corralled into certain definitions of "mentors", "teams", "volunteers", "sponsors", "schools", "management", and "STUDENTS". Tickling the sliding scale is an inherently perilous exercise, which is why we rarely see strictly positive responses to any moves made.

When questioning why some people are ready to dive in head first into murky water, remember the organization has already done this many times and will continue to do so.

A good exercise that may be worth pursuing: here is the blog detailing the strategic pillars for FIRST. How does the removal or maintaining of bag day stand on these pillars, and how does it falter on them?

[Jean Tenca]

I agree with everyone else on here that this survey is very poorly written. I honestly hope they do not use any data collected from this. Hopefully they will rethink the survey and do it again.

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I agree that the questions were confusing and difficult to parse. I hope this is only the first step in their (public) research process on this issue.


As this thread is starting to (d)evolve into a discussion of the actual possibility of eliminating bag day, I have one main thought on that. Nobody knows. Anyone who speaks with certainty on how the elimination of bag day would impact teams' robots, teams' performance, teams' mental health, teams' sustainability, or FRC as a whole is talking out their behind. At this point there's little more on conjecture. There are a multitude of factors in play, and almost certainly the elimination of bag day would impact different teams very differently. The bottom line is that we simply don't know. That doesn't mean we cannot pursue the change or that the change will be bad, but it does mean there's a lot of uncertainty.

Also, everyone should keep in mind that any discussion on CD is likely more biased towards competitively successful teams than is the general FRC population.

Source: https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...d.php?t=143630

[ehochstein]

Originally Posted by DonShaw

There needs to be a stop build day at some point or teams would enter the last possible events before states ( if a district model) to get more work time in on the robot. Teams that get a week one home event would be impacted by the lack of time.

In real world there are production deadlines at some point.

Just my fifty cents.

Every team that attends a week one event will have had the some amount of time to work on their robot. The same goes for a week seven event, every team that attends (a week seven event) will have the same amount of time to work on their robot. The event dates are your production deadlines and at the end of the season you would still have a championship(s) event where everyone has the same deadline.

In Minnesota we use a similar registration system for FTC, yes the later events tend to fill up faster because teams want more time to practice but in the end it doesn't really make a difference. Most of the competitive FTC teams compete in 2 events, one early and one late event - the change in competitiveness from the first event to the last event is huge but each team gets an equal amount of time to work on their robot between events. At the state championship all teams are on the same level and no one feels slighted by attending an early event vs a late event (at least no one has shared that issue with me).

I did have one Minnesota FRC student and family come up to me at the MN FRC State Championship last year that felt the level of competition was unfair. They felt this way because the teams that had attended two Regionals, followed by the World Championship had multiple hours of unbag and practice time vs the teams that qualified at their first and only Regional but didn't qualify for the World Championship. Eliminating the 6-week build season would fix this (somewhat unique) problem.

As for the topic at hand, I would set my stance as neutral-leaning towards eliminating stop build day, that being said I do really enjoy having a six-week build season.