paper: Stop the Stop Build

[Jim Zondag]

Thread created automatically to discuss a document in CD-Media.

Stop the Stop Build by Jim Zondag

[Jim Zondag]

Teams, In response to the Stop Build survey circulated yesterday, I finished this paper I was already working on. In this paper I share some analytics on the realities of the Stop Build process and my opinions on possible future changes.

[marshall]

#Zondag4President

[Sperkowsky]

I really hope you linked this at the end of your survey. If someone from FIRST reads through this we may actually have a chance in getting rid of this.

[jwfoss]

Jim, your 8 hours of unbag every week for every team would be the perfect first step. Thank you for your well thought out analysis.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by jwfoss

Jim, your 8 hours of unbag every week for every team would be the perfect first step. Thank you for your well thought out analysis.

It would indeed. I do feel like the hassle of dealing with bag forms and zip ties is going to cause enough chaos that it won't be long before the bag goes pop though.

[TDav540]

This is basically the ultimate paper regarding anything bag day.

Frank, we know you're there.

[adam the great]

Awesome paper, and love how many points of interest you touched based on with reasonable data points and comparisons. This could be a really good paper to share with many teams that believe that their season is only "6 weeks long"

[StAxis]

A fantastic compromise. I am glad to see a take on this from one of the greatest FRC statisticians out there.

I have been very supportive of the retention of bag day for the reasons listed at the end of the paper. It is difficult with no data to support them, but they are very present and if they occur to the levels feared by some, though unlikely, would be detrimental to FRC.

After all things considered I cannot see any reason not to fully support this 8 hour per week period. It is about equal to one Thursday of work at an event, which is most of the time many teams are able to spend really WORKING on their robot.

Until there is a larger cultural shift in the community towards FRC as a sport it will be difficult to eliminate bag day, but adding hours to unbagging per year might be a good way to ease into that mindset, and help us bring the playing field up, and outsiders in.

[EricLeifermann]

Fantastic write up/proposal Jim.

Lots of people, my self included, have touted this type of info with out having the data and charts behind us to really show the truth for several years now. Hopefully this is something that Frank and the others at HQ see soon and implement for this coming year.

It isn't anything that they would have to change on their end can just be an added rule to the rule book.

[Joe Johnson]

Jim,
Really amazing work. Thanks.

I love that you specifically called out that "6 weeks is a myth." It has been a myth for 2 decades.

I also love the data showing that basically a lot of teams are going to suck the first week they compete, whether that's Week 1 or Week 5, they are going to have a bad weekend. And the longer they wait to complete, the badder that weekend is going to get because the rest of the field is making progress (by going to competitions).

The time has come. Let's rip off the band-aide. End Stop Build Day. Let teams keep their robots for the full FIRST Season.

Will some teams build a completely new robot after Week 1? Sure maybe. But really, who cares? A lot of those teams will just put themselves into a deeper hole trying to copy Poofs or Symbotics or Robotnauts or whomever. They won't discover the problems that are not obvious until it's too late. And even if they are successful at knocking off one or two features from another team, I'd rather live in that world than the current world where so many teams bring less than functional robots to their first competition.

Dr. Joe J.

[Brian Selle]

Awesome work. Thanks for putting this together!

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

Jim,
Really amazing work. Thanks.

I love that you specifically called out that "6 weeks is a myth." It has been a myth for 2 decades.

I also love the data showing that basically a lot of teams are going to suck the first week they compete, whether that's Week 1 or Week 5, they are going to have a bad weekend. And the longer they wait to complete, the badder that weekend is going to get because the rest of the field is making progress (by going to competitions).

The time has come. Let's rip off the band-aide. End Stop Build Day. Let teams keep their robots for the full FIRST Season.

Will some teams build a completely new robot after Week 1? Sure maybe. But really, who cares? A lot of those teams will just put themselves into a deeper hole trying to copy Poofs or Symbotics or Robotnauts or whomever. They won't discover the problems that are not obvious until it's too late. And even if they are successful at knocking off one or two features from another team, I'd rather live in that world than the current world where so many teams bring less than functional robots to their first competition.

Dr. Joe J.

My my attitudes have changed...

https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...5&postcount=34

[nuclearnerd]

Excellent report. Thanks for putting forward such a strong argument Jim. Hopefully it helps sway FIRST's decision.

[Chris is me]

The compromise solution presented here is brilliant, and is something that could be implemented immediately without any logistical changes on FIRST's end. 8 hours of unbag time a week for all teams would be a huge improvement over the current system, and I suspect it would eliminate the need for practice robots for many mid tier teams. Upper level teams may still choose to build one, but the advantage gained over everyone else would be reduced.

Unbag time in your own shop is one of the biggest reasons District teams improve so rapidly and play at such a higher level. Give this advantage to everyone, every week, and everyone is satisfied. The people who want to rest, can rest, with just one or two meetings a week they can work on the robot tops. The people who want to work can carefully budget their time and use their competition robot extensively during the period after Stop Build.