[FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by efoote868

I might be in the CD minority, but I appreciate stop build day. It's easier to tell members that "we expect you to participate during the 6 weeks we have to build the robot for competition" rather than "you have to participate all the way up to the first competition, and then maybe the second competition, and then maybe more until championship" etc.

Same thing for mentors, and other volunteers. It doesn't make a difference for the hard core enthusiasts, but it definitely makes it easier for the casual participant (the people not on CD in the off-season ) which is the majority of the FIRST population.

I think that is what causes a lot of the divide on this subject. Some teams work for 6 weeks then stop. We tell our students they are expected to work until the end of the season. Our season ends when we have not qualified to compete in any more competitions.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

I think that is what causes a lot of the divide on this subject. Some teams work for 6 weeks then stop. We tell our students they are expected to work until the end of the season. Our season ends when we have not qualified to compete in any more competitions.

Same.

I believe some of the best parts of season are when we travel to practice with other teams during the regional season. It's a lot of fun, and the teams get a lot out of it.

Unfortunately only high resource teams can currently afford this advantage.

[efoote868]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

I think that is what causes a lot of the divide on this subject. Some teams work for 6 weeks then stop. We tell our students they are expected to work until the end of the season. Our season ends when we have not qualified to compete in any more competitions.

From experience in the past, there are quite a few students involved in my team that simply would not join if they were told it was a full time 12 week commitment instead of 6, even if the last 6 weeks was not really full time and at a reduced load.

But once you get them hooked, they're in for the full build season and full competition season, and off season and they re-prioritize their schedules around FIRST.


If FIRST kept the same "6 week build season" but relaxed requirements about what can and can't happen during off weeks during the competition season, I'd be perfectly fine with that.

[Brian Selle]

Survey was super confusing. I read and re-read every question, still not sure what they were asking. My random stop build points:

1) Removing the stop build day does not remove the deadline. Your first competition is your deadline. I would argue that removing stop build day is more "real world" than the stop build loophole. Car racing, sports, design competitions - everyone prepares right up to the start of the competition.

2) When I first started mentoring for FRC and heard that others build practice robots to get around the stop build day, it didn't feel right. Either you say stop and mean stop or don't do it at all.

3) I believe the mythical "6-week build" concept is mostly about a catchy marketing phrase. It rolls off the tongue and sounds great in the elevator. Then after you've set the hook, you explain the concept of building a second robot so that you can continue practicing, their accepting smile becomes a "what"?

4) For those teams/mentors that want to stop after 6 weeks that's still an option without an official stop build day. At least you won't be lulled into thinking that other teams are really stopping work after stop build day.

5) Several years ago when we only had a few kids and a couple mentors, I remember everyone working flat out until bag day to finish the competition robot. The kids and mentors were all exhausted. We didn't have the bandwidth to build 2 robots simultaneously. We'd take a couple days off then peel ourselves off the floor and have to start building the practice robot. It certainly paid off, but felt so unnecessary. I would have much rather continued working and practicing on the competition robot.

6) Competitions would soooo much less stressful. Teams would be able to help other teams more. We would actually have time to walk around and see other teams and the exhibits. I think the level of performance of all teams would increase. How many times have you said or heard, "it worked perfectly on our practice robot"?

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by efoote868

From experience in the past, there are quite a few students involved in my team that simply would not join if they were told it was a full time 12 week commitment instead of 6, even if the last 6 weeks was not really full time and at a reduced load.

But once you get them hooked, they're in for the full build season and full competition season, and off season and they re-prioritize their schedules around FIRST.


If FIRST kept the same "6 week build season" but relaxed requirements about what can and can't happen during off weeks during the competition season, I'd be perfectly fine with that.

Why does FIRST need to do this? Why can't you just do it on your team?

Originally Posted by Brian Selle

6) Competitions would soooo much less stressful. Teams would be able to help other teams more. We would actually have time to walk around and see other teams and the exhibits. I think the level of performance of all teams would increase. How many times have you said or heard, "it worked perfectly on our practice robot"?

And think of how many more robots would show up and be able to do something instead sit there in the middle of the field the entire match (of course we would still have some that do that anyway).

[Nate Laverdure]

Originally Posted by efoote868

From experience in the past, there are quite a few students involved in my team that simply would not join if they were told it was a full time 12 week commitment instead of 6, even if the last 6 weeks was not really full time and at a reduced load.

But once you get them hooked, they're in for the full build season and full competition season, and off season and they re-prioritize their schedules around FIRST.

This post is advocating lying to students and parents.

[cbale2000]

Originally Posted by Brian Selle

Survey was super confusing. I read and re-read every question, still not sure what they were asking. My random stop build points:

1) Removing the stop build day does not remove the deadline. Your first competition is your deadline. I would argue that removing stop build day is more "real world" than the stop build loophole. Car racing, sports, design competitions - everyone prepares right up to the start of the competition.

2) When I first started mentoring for FRC and heard that others build practice robots to get around the stop build day, it didn't feel right. Either you say stop and mean stop or don't do it at all.

3) I believe the mythical "6-week build" concept is mostly about a catchy marketing phrase. It rolls off the tongue and sounds great in the elevator. Then after you've set the hook, you explain the concept of building a second robot so that you can continue practicing, their accepting smile becomes a "what"?

4) For those teams/mentors that want to stop after 6 weeks that's still an option without an official stop build day. At least you won't be lulled into thinking that other teams are really stopping work after stop build day.

5) Several years ago when we only had a few kids and a couple mentors, I remember everyone working flat out until bag day to finish the competition robot. The kids and mentors were all exhausted. We didn't have the bandwidth to build 2 robots simultaneously. We'd take a couple days off then peel ourselves off the floor and have to start building the practice robot. It certainly paid off, but felt so unnecessary. I would have much rather continued working and practicing on the competition robot.

6) Competitions would soooo much less stressful. Teams would be able to help other teams more. We would actually have time to walk around and see other teams and the exhibits. I think the level of performance of all teams would increase. How many times have you said or heard, "it worked perfectly on our practice robot"?

I was going to post a long write-up of my thoughts on this topic, but you basically just summed up everything I was going to say for me.

[efoote868]

Originally Posted by Nate Laverdure

This post is advocating lying to students and parents.

If that's how you or anyone else interpreted my post, then I didn't form the post well enough.


We tell our robotics students that to be on the team and to go to competitions, they need to participate every weekday during build season, which is 6 weeks long.

If we told our students that to be on the team, the need to participate every day during the season (including weekends), which is 12 weeks long, there would be many students that would not join because of that time commitment.

After the stop build date, we don't require or even expect every student to participate between stop build date and competition, but those that participated through the 6 week build season are allowed to travel with the team to competitions.

There are many students that would not sign up for 12 weeks that end up participating daily through the 12 week period because they're hooked on FIRST.

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

Why does FIRST need to do this? Why can't you just do it on your team?

It's an easier sell. It's easier to get casual participation - say a shop teacher, someone required from the school for a school team to function. We need you every day for 6 weeks, then a competition, then the year is over. The stop build day makes it easier for mentors to say, "that's it, we're done."

Removing the stop build day entirely makes the time commitment bigger and a harder sell for new members, new mentors, and new teams.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by Brian Selle

...

6) Competitions would soooo much less stressful. Teams would be able to help other teams more. We would actually have time to walk around and see other teams and the exhibits. I think the level of performance of all teams would increase. How many times have you said or heard, "it worked perfectly on our practice robot"?

Imagine If all teams were inspected before practice matches started? There might be a rush and a line-up at inspection immediately after the pits open the first day! The horror!

[jman4747]

Originally Posted by martin417

Imagine If all teams were inspected before practice matches started? There might be a rush and a line-up at inspection immediately after the pits open the first day! The horror!

I wish that was the problem we had now. That should be like a goal.

[Joe Johnson]

Related thread: Zondag steps up to the plate and knocks it out of the park.

Dr. Joe J.

[ahartnet]

I'm generally for eliminating stop build day. My only concerns with it is that it does serve as an important milestone for probably several people in FIRST who are involved in capacities beyond mentorship. If we have an unrestricted season or potentially even the 8 hrs of unbag weekly proposed by Jim of the Killer Bees - it'd be harder to peel me away from my team to volunteer for an event. If we're just working with the practice bot and a 30 lb withholding allowance, it seems easier to leave it to the hands of particular subsystems. If it's potentially the whole robot, I'd want to be around. Maybe that's just me and I'm overbearing/controlling.

That said, I think anyone that thinks things would be less stressful for any reason is fooling themselves. Yes, it would enable teams that are capable to help teams that are struggling more (inviting teams without a field to come do driving practice and the like), but as Parkinson's law states, the work fills to the time allowed. Top tier teams are already pushing themselves to the limits and things won't change (much) for them. Teams trying to develop into year in and year out contenders will have better robots, but will be just as stressed. If unrestricted robot access would have let you complete that "1 more thing" this year, all that would happen is you would move on to that next "1 more thing". That's what pulls us into FIRST in the first place. The only place where I see there being objectively less stress is for teams in an area that can get pre-inspected and are willing to do so. I think a major problem is that many of the teams that would benefit largely from being pre-inspected will likely not see or respond to emails setting that time up, or are far away from other teams where getting someone to do a pre-inspection would be tough. Additionally teams far away from a team with the resources to build a field for practice time will still be hindered. How many teams are far enough away from a practice field that they really still won't be prepared for competition?

Even with all the above though, bag day seems to be a detriment your average FRC team.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by jman4747

I wish that was the problem we had now. That should be like a goal.

The robot inspectors would love to have to deal with that problem. Much better than trying to get a robot to pass its inspection so it can participate in seeding mathes.

[Tim Sharp]

Originally Posted by efoote868

Removing the stop build day entirely makes the time commitment bigger and a harder sell for new members, new mentors, and new teams.

I think exactly the opposite is true. It's easier to sell a lower level commitment for a longer period of time than it is to sell a "total immersion" commitment for 6 weeks.

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by efoote868

If that's how you or anyone else interpreted my post, then I didn't form the post well enough.


We tell our robotics students that to be on the team and to go to competitions, they need to participate every weekday during build season, which is 6 weeks long.

If we told our students that to be on the team, the need to participate every day during the season (including weekends), which is 12 weeks long, there would be many students that would not join because of that time commitment.

After the stop build date, we don't require or even expect every student to participate between stop build date and competition, but those that participated through the 6 week build season are allowed to travel with the team to competitions.

There are many students that would not sign up for 12 weeks that end up participating daily through the 12 week period because they're hooked on FIRST.


It's an easier sell. It's easier to get casual participation - say a shop teacher, someone required from the school for a school team to function. We need you every day for 6 weeks, then a competition, then the year is over. The stop build day makes it easier for mentors to say, "that's it, we're done."

Removing the stop build day entirely makes the time commitment bigger and a harder sell for new members, new mentors, and new teams.

I don't understand. How does removing Stop Build Day make you change your team's work schedule?