[FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

My experience doing software design has mostly been along these soft-deadlines you mention. I worked for a medical device company for a long time. We would have a hard deadline for the *.0 releases, and have to get everything finished for them so we could send them to testing and then to the FDA on time. But once they were sent off to testing, we immediately started working on the *.1 release, fixing everything that was wrong (ie identified in testing) with the *.0 release. And ultimately, the users never saw the *.0 release, we were able to go straight to the field with the *.1 release instead.

Jon, I agree that *.1 releases are critical for getting FIRST robots that can effectively play the game and are fun to watch. Do we agree that Jim's proposal is a much more effective way of teams getting that *.1 release than the status quo?

[Andy Baker]

I'll chime in on this, since I have already said it to folks at FIRST and friends who have asked my opinion:

As a owner of a company who makes money from teams who build second robots and as a 20 year FIRST mentor, my opinion is to get rid of bag day.

My reasons are similar to what Allen Gregory IV has stated (among many other people) so eloquently. However, I do understand the people who still want bag day. Weighing the two options, I vote for no bag.

Sincerely,
Andy B.

[FrankJ]

Well the other Frank just announce it will not happen this year.

[Brian Maher]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

Well the other Frank just announce it will not happen this year.

Link to relevant blog post.

[bdaroz]

Originally Posted by BMSOTM

Link to relevant blog post.

Nothing like getting our hopes up...

[Sperkowsky]

I'm putting on a tin foil hat.

Do you think first intended to use this poll as justification for keeping bag and tag expecting the community to lean heavily towards it staying? They were then surprised with either results leaning heavily the other way and decided to back track making it clear they weren't changing anything for 2017. Based on frank saying on fun a few months ago that bag and tag was staying saying it was a key part of Frc I found this poll a bit odd in the first place.

Frank is usually fairly careful about what he posts on blogs so I find it a little strange that he didn't mention this poll would have no effect on 2017.

So yea. Just wondering if anyone thinks this could have been what happened.

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I'm putting on a tin foil hat.

Do you think first intended to use this poll as justification for keeping bag and tag expecting the community to lean heavily towards it staying? They were then surprised with either results leaning heavily the other way and decided to back track making it clear they weren't changing anything for 2017. Based on frank saying on fun a few months ago that bag and tag was staying saying it was a key part of Frc I found this poll a bit odd in the first place.

Frank is usually fairly careful about what he posts on blogs so I find it a little strange that he didn't mention this poll would have no effect on 2017.

So yea. Just wondering if anyone thinks this could have been what happened.

I actually thought the poll was seemingly built towards people against bag and tag. And no, I seriously doubt this is what FIRST doing. They've been very open with their reasoning for doing things over the last few years (even is the community doesn't always agree with it).

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I'm putting on a tin foil hat.

Do you think first intended to use this poll as justification for keeping bag and tag expecting the community to lean heavily towards it staying? They were then surprised with either results leaning heavily the other way and decided to back track making it clear they weren't changing anything for 2017. Based on frank saying on fun a few months ago that bag and tag was staying saying it was a key part of Frc I found this poll a bit odd in the first place.

Frank is usually fairly careful about what he posts on blogs so I find it a little strange that he didn't mention this poll would have no effect on 2017.

So yea. Just wondering if anyone thinks this could have been what happened.

The poll has been open for less than a day. I highly doubt this is a measured response to unexpected poll numbers. It's much more likely that the poll was to gauge opinions for future seasons.

He probably didn't initially mention that the poll wouldn't effect 2017 because of the numerous times he had already announced Stop Build Day would be continuing for 2017. Just a week or so ago he even confirmed the specific time.

[AllenGregoryIV]

BanTheBag.Spectrum3847.org

34 slides on why we need to abolish "Stop Build Day".

A lot of it it is details on how teams are currently building well past this artificial build limit. Also some counter arguments to the most common arguments for keeping the status quo. Even a brief discussion of the fact that there is little we can do to enforce these rules anyway.

[dirtbikerxz]

I personally am a fan of the bag. We don't have a lot of resources, we are a team of 2 mentors and 6 active students. We definitely don't have time to build a second bot, and we barely finish (or don't finish some years) before bag day. But it offers a challenge that I absolutely enjoy. While I know that a team like 118 that has 2+ bots, will most likely always beat us, I don't think we should move or remove build date.

[niklas674]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

I personally am a fan of the bag. We don't have a lot of resources, we are a team of 2 mentors and 6 active students. We definitely don't have time to build a second bot, and we barely finish (or don't finish some years) before bag day. But it offers a challenge that I absolutely enjoy. While I know that a team like 118 that has 2+ bots, will most likely always beat us, I don't think we should move or remove build date.

I have to agree. I'd much prefer to keep the challenge level that is currently present with bag and tag. It's fun, and I noticed that personally it pushed myself and everyone else on my team to the max and shows what everyone can truly do. While not having a bag and tag and being able to still work on the robot during this time, i personally wouldn't have as much fun.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by niklas674

I have to agree. I'd much prefer to keep the challenge level that is currently present with bag and tag. It's fun, and I noticed that personally it pushed myself and everyone else on my team to the max and shows what everyone can truly do. While not having a bag and tag and being able to still work on the robot during this time, i personally wouldn't have as much fun.

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

I personally am a fan of the bag. We don't have a lot of resources, we are a team of 2 mentors and 6 active students. We definitely don't have time to build a second bot, and we barely finish (or don't finish some years) before bag day. But it offers a challenge that I absolutely enjoy. While I know that a team like 118 that has 2+ bots, will most likely always beat us, I don't think we should move or remove build date.

I agree the challenge is cool. In 2013, 2014, and 2015 our team did not finish a robot by stop build. So, I set our "Stop Build Day" to the end of week 4. A lot of members believed me the entire year no one actually calculating the amount of weeks. It was also fun telling people we still have 2 and a half weeks once they thought they hit stop build day.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by niklas674

I have to agree. I'd much prefer to keep the challenge level that is currently present with bag and tag. It's fun, and I noticed that personally it pushed myself and everyone else on my team to the max and shows what everyone can truly do. While not having a bag and tag and being able to still work on the robot during this time, i personally wouldn't have as much fun.

What would prevent you from still challenging yourself and your team to finish in ~45.5 days (we don't have 6 weeks). An open bag gives every team the right to choose how long they spend on their robot prior to putting on the field for their first match, assuming they start after kickoff. You can still acquire bags and zip ties*. Removing stop build just allows the teams who currently are struggling to continue to work after the build season, a little reprieve on draining their resources.

Spoiler for *Sarcasm:

If you miss having your ROBOT LOCK UP FORM verified I'll even volunteer to check any forms brought to me at events where I'm LRI after we abolish "Stop Build Day".

[Hitchhiker 42]

I'd just like to mention one more thing that could play an impact: how we talk about FRC. A lot of times, when I'm describing FRC to people not involved with it, a big part I mention is the 6 weeks aspect. I think that really drives home the point that not only are we doing something really cool and hard, but also in a very limited amount of time. I definetly think that for outreach, the "6 weeks" aspect helps in attracting people to an even cooler thing. Something to think about.

[niklas674]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

What would prevent you from still challenging yourself and your team to finish in ~45.5 days (we don't have 6 weeks). An open bag gives every team the right to choose how long they spend on their robot prior to putting on the field for their first match, assuming they start after kickoff. You can still acquire bags and zip ties*. Removing stop build just allows the teams who currently are struggling to continue to work after the build season, a little reprieve on draining their resources.

Spoiler for *Sarcasm:

If you miss having your ROBOT LOCK UP FORM verified I'll even volunteer to check any forms brought to me at events where I'm LRI after we abolish "Stop Build Day".

There is nothing stopping us from setting that limit, but if you had the option to keep working or stop earlier then most of the other teams, you would obviously keep working. The point is that given there is a set deadline vs a general time frame personally pushes me harder.

Another issue with abolishing this is nothing is stopping a team from waiting until comp season to see what the best robot is and build that exact robot. It would eliminate originality. The current set up allows you to copy basic mechanisms I.e can grabbers but keep your robot basically the same.

I feel that the stop build day gives each student a possibility to think creatively and come up with an original design. Now I'm not saying that every team would do that but the option is there.