[FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

[bdaroz]

Originally Posted by BMSOTM

Link to relevant blog post.

Nothing like getting our hopes up...

[Sperkowsky]

I'm putting on a tin foil hat.

Do you think first intended to use this poll as justification for keeping bag and tag expecting the community to lean heavily towards it staying? They were then surprised with either results leaning heavily the other way and decided to back track making it clear they weren't changing anything for 2017. Based on frank saying on fun a few months ago that bag and tag was staying saying it was a key part of Frc I found this poll a bit odd in the first place.

Frank is usually fairly careful about what he posts on blogs so I find it a little strange that he didn't mention this poll would have no effect on 2017.

So yea. Just wondering if anyone thinks this could have been what happened.

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I'm putting on a tin foil hat.

Do you think first intended to use this poll as justification for keeping bag and tag expecting the community to lean heavily towards it staying? They were then surprised with either results leaning heavily the other way and decided to back track making it clear they weren't changing anything for 2017. Based on frank saying on fun a few months ago that bag and tag was staying saying it was a key part of Frc I found this poll a bit odd in the first place.

Frank is usually fairly careful about what he posts on blogs so I find it a little strange that he didn't mention this poll would have no effect on 2017.

So yea. Just wondering if anyone thinks this could have been what happened.

I actually thought the poll was seemingly built towards people against bag and tag. And no, I seriously doubt this is what FIRST doing. They've been very open with their reasoning for doing things over the last few years (even is the community doesn't always agree with it).

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I'm putting on a tin foil hat.

Do you think first intended to use this poll as justification for keeping bag and tag expecting the community to lean heavily towards it staying? They were then surprised with either results leaning heavily the other way and decided to back track making it clear they weren't changing anything for 2017. Based on frank saying on fun a few months ago that bag and tag was staying saying it was a key part of Frc I found this poll a bit odd in the first place.

Frank is usually fairly careful about what he posts on blogs so I find it a little strange that he didn't mention this poll would have no effect on 2017.

So yea. Just wondering if anyone thinks this could have been what happened.

The poll has been open for less than a day. I highly doubt this is a measured response to unexpected poll numbers. It's much more likely that the poll was to gauge opinions for future seasons.

He probably didn't initially mention that the poll wouldn't effect 2017 because of the numerous times he had already announced Stop Build Day would be continuing for 2017. Just a week or so ago he even confirmed the specific time.

[AllenGregoryIV]

BanTheBag.Spectrum3847.org

34 slides on why we need to abolish "Stop Build Day".

A lot of it it is details on how teams are currently building well past this artificial build limit. Also some counter arguments to the most common arguments for keeping the status quo. Even a brief discussion of the fact that there is little we can do to enforce these rules anyway.

[dirtbikerxz]

I personally am a fan of the bag. We don't have a lot of resources, we are a team of 2 mentors and 6 active students. We definitely don't have time to build a second bot, and we barely finish (or don't finish some years) before bag day. But it offers a challenge that I absolutely enjoy. While I know that a team like 118 that has 2+ bots, will most likely always beat us, I don't think we should move or remove build date.

[niklas674]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

I personally am a fan of the bag. We don't have a lot of resources, we are a team of 2 mentors and 6 active students. We definitely don't have time to build a second bot, and we barely finish (or don't finish some years) before bag day. But it offers a challenge that I absolutely enjoy. While I know that a team like 118 that has 2+ bots, will most likely always beat us, I don't think we should move or remove build date.

I have to agree. I'd much prefer to keep the challenge level that is currently present with bag and tag. It's fun, and I noticed that personally it pushed myself and everyone else on my team to the max and shows what everyone can truly do. While not having a bag and tag and being able to still work on the robot during this time, i personally wouldn't have as much fun.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by niklas674

I have to agree. I'd much prefer to keep the challenge level that is currently present with bag and tag. It's fun, and I noticed that personally it pushed myself and everyone else on my team to the max and shows what everyone can truly do. While not having a bag and tag and being able to still work on the robot during this time, i personally wouldn't have as much fun.

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

I personally am a fan of the bag. We don't have a lot of resources, we are a team of 2 mentors and 6 active students. We definitely don't have time to build a second bot, and we barely finish (or don't finish some years) before bag day. But it offers a challenge that I absolutely enjoy. While I know that a team like 118 that has 2+ bots, will most likely always beat us, I don't think we should move or remove build date.

I agree the challenge is cool. In 2013, 2014, and 2015 our team did not finish a robot by stop build. So, I set our "Stop Build Day" to the end of week 4. A lot of members believed me the entire year no one actually calculating the amount of weeks. It was also fun telling people we still have 2 and a half weeks once they thought they hit stop build day.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by niklas674

I have to agree. I'd much prefer to keep the challenge level that is currently present with bag and tag. It's fun, and I noticed that personally it pushed myself and everyone else on my team to the max and shows what everyone can truly do. While not having a bag and tag and being able to still work on the robot during this time, i personally wouldn't have as much fun.

What would prevent you from still challenging yourself and your team to finish in ~45.5 days (we don't have 6 weeks). An open bag gives every team the right to choose how long they spend on their robot prior to putting on the field for their first match, assuming they start after kickoff. You can still acquire bags and zip ties*. Removing stop build just allows the teams who currently are struggling to continue to work after the build season, a little reprieve on draining their resources.

Spoiler for *Sarcasm:

If you miss having your ROBOT LOCK UP FORM verified I'll even volunteer to check any forms brought to me at events where I'm LRI after we abolish "Stop Build Day".

[Hitchhiker 42]

I'd just like to mention one more thing that could play an impact: how we talk about FRC. A lot of times, when I'm describing FRC to people not involved with it, a big part I mention is the 6 weeks aspect. I think that really drives home the point that not only are we doing something really cool and hard, but also in a very limited amount of time. I definetly think that for outreach, the "6 weeks" aspect helps in attracting people to an even cooler thing. Something to think about.

[dirtbikerxz]

I really agree. When pitching FRC to my peers or strangers, and I show them our bot, they always ask "how long did that take you guys to build? several months?" The expression they have when I reply with 6 weeks is awesome.

Being able to challenge ourselves, and doing everything possible to get every last bit built within that time period is just plain fun. I mean sure, we are still working after build season end, but those "6 weeks" are truly super fun and worth it. I would not want to get rid of it.

[niklas674]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

What would prevent you from still challenging yourself and your team to finish in ~45.5 days (we don't have 6 weeks). An open bag gives every team the right to choose how long they spend on their robot prior to putting on the field for their first match, assuming they start after kickoff. You can still acquire bags and zip ties*. Removing stop build just allows the teams who currently are struggling to continue to work after the build season, a little reprieve on draining their resources.

Spoiler for *Sarcasm:

If you miss having your ROBOT LOCK UP FORM verified I'll even volunteer to check any forms brought to me at events where I'm LRI after we abolish "Stop Build Day".

There is nothing stopping us from setting that limit, but if you had the option to keep working or stop earlier then most of the other teams, you would obviously keep working. The point is that given there is a set deadline vs a general time frame personally pushes me harder.

Another issue with abolishing this is nothing is stopping a team from waiting until comp season to see what the best robot is and build that exact robot. It would eliminate originality. The current set up allows you to copy basic mechanisms I.e can grabbers but keep your robot basically the same.

I feel that the stop build day gives each student a possibility to think creatively and come up with an original design. Now I'm not saying that every team would do that but the option is there.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker 42

I'd just like to mention one more thing that could play an impact: how we talk about FRC. A lot of times, when I'm describing FRC to people not involved with it, a big part I mention is the 6 weeks aspect. I think that really drives home the point that not only are we doing something really cool and hard, but also in a very limited amount of time. I definetly think that for outreach, the "6 weeks" aspect helps in attracting people to an even cooler thing. Something to think about.

But it's a lie. We don't have 6 weeks even if teams stopped right at "Stop Build Day" it's 45 days 12 Hours . If we are lying already, we can just keep lying after we abolish "Stop Build Day".

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by niklas674

There is nothing stopping us from setting that limit, but if you had the option to keep working or stop earlier then most of the other teams, you would obviously keep working. The point is that given there is a set deadline vs a general time frame personally pushes me harder.

Another issue with abolishing this is nothing is stopping a team from waiting until comp season to see what the best robot is and build that exact robot. It would eliminate originality. The current set up allows you to copy basic mechanisms I.e can grabbers but keep your robot basically the same.

I feel that the stop build day gives each student a possibility to think creatively and come up with an original design. Now I'm not saying that every team would do that but the option is there.

While I disagree with the fact that only minor changes (like can grabbers) can be made (because, I have seen teams basically rebuild their bot over a period of 3 regionals). I completely agree with the deadline part. Having a 6 week crunch period just generally causes me to focus much more. For example, If a teacher gives us a research project due in 4 weeks, people probably won't start working on it dedicatedly till like week 3. But if she says we only have a few days, then you can bet that project is all students will be doing.

And yes I know people can counter argue that with "but if you were dedicated enough than you would focus yourself even without a deadline.", lets be real here. While that is the ideal thing to do. Very few High school students are capable of doing that

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

But it's a lie. We don't have 6 weeks even if teams stopped right at "Stop Build Day" it's 45 days 12 Hours . If we are lying already, we can just keep lying after we abolish "Stop Build Day".

Okay Mr. Gregory I'm starting to think that you are just completely trolling all of us now. Especially with that last reply (no disrespect). That doesn't seem like a statement you would say normally.