[FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

[Hitchhiker 42]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

But it's a lie. We don't have 6 weeks even if teams stopped right at "Stop Build Day" it's 45 days 12 Hours . If we are lying already, we can just keep lying after we abolish "Stop Build Day".

Let's be honest here, do people really care exactly how long we spend? Six weeks is an approximation. One good enough for PR purposes.
Example: If I tell you each of my classes is 42 minutes and 30 seconds, is that helpful? No, it's more helpful to just say 45 minutes. That's not lying.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by niklas674

There is nothing stopping us from setting that limit, but if you had the option to keep working or stop earlier then most of the other teams, you would obviously keep working. The point is that given there is a set deadline vs a general time frame personally pushes me harder.

That deadline doesn't exist now. Many many teams are building well past the "deadline". The only teams that aren't either don't have the resources or are choosing not to.

Originally Posted by niklas674

Another issue with abolishing this is nothing is stopping a team from waiting until comp season to see what the best robot is and build that exact robot. It would eliminate originality. The current set up allows you to copy basic mechanisms I.e can grabbers but keep your robot basically the same.
I feel that the stop build day gives each student a possibility to think creatively and come up with an original design. Now I'm not saying that every team would do that but the option is there.

There is something stopping them from doing it well. FRC Robots are hard and expensive. Would some teams try this, probably. Would they win a world title unlikely.

Do teams rebuild their robots in the likeness or other robots during the competition season already? Yes of course they do. In 2015 the robot we built during build season never even saw a single match of FRC competition. We stripped it down completely and built a new robot based on designs we saw. It's already happening, you can't avoid something that already exists. There are countless other examples of full in season rebuilds using inspiration from other teams.

The option to do that is already there, and very few people take it. Just like very few people would take it if we got rid of "Stop Build Day".

[nerdrock101]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

I personally am a fan of the bag. We don't have a lot of resources, we are a team of 2 mentors and 6 active students. We definitely don't have time to build a second bot, and we barely finish (or don't finish some years) before bag day. But it offers a challenge that I absolutely enjoy. While I know that a team like 118 that has 2+ bots, will most likely always beat us, I don't think we should move or remove build date.

Lack of resources is one of the things we struggle with as well. We have very few dedicated mentors on our team (many of them are parents that float in and out) and very few members to boot. As a result, we meet nearly every night and weekend just to scrape a bot together. If build season were extended, we would have to continue that pace for much longer. I can give my time for robots for six weeks, but it's hard on my personal life, let alone adding four or more weeks to that. On the other hand, if we're not there, the students can't work, and that'd be doing a disservice to them. Eliminating bag and tag is not a fix for all teams in this position.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker 42

Let's be honest here, do people really care exactly how long we spend? Six weeks is an approximation. One good enough for PR purposes.
Example: If I tell you each of my classes is 42 minutes and 30 seconds, is that helpful? No, it's more helpful to just say 45 minutes. That's not lying.

Taken from Jim Zondag's excellent paper. Discussion on the paper is here.


Claiming six weeks when so many teams use the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, practice bots, multiple competitions, and more to extend their build season isn't just PR cover up, it's a lie.

[Hitchhiker 42]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

That deadline doesn't exist now. Many many teams are building well past the "deadline". The only teams that aren't either don't have the resources or are choosing not to.

I think the idea here is that's it's more of a personal (or team) challenge within the team, not outside it. I know I definetly enjoy build season as a challenge that not only challenges me in the robotics area, but also my time management skills, etc.

Originally Posted by nerdrock101

I can give my time for robots for six weeks, but it's hard on my personal life, let alone adding four or more weeks to that.

To be fair, FIRST is advertised as being "The hardest fun you'll ever have"

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker 42

I think the idea here is that's it's more of a personal (or team) challenge within the team, not outside it. I know I definetly enjoy build season as a challenge that not only challenges me in the robotics area, but also my time management skills, etc.

I understand, my point is that if it's internal, removing HQ's "Stop Build Day" doesn't prevent teams from implementing their own.

Originally Posted by nerdrock101

Lack of resources is one of the things we struggle with as well. We have very few dedicated mentors on our team (many of them are parents that float in and out) and very few members to boot. As a result, we meet nearly every night and weekend just to scrape a bot together. If build season were extended, we would have to continue that pace for much longer. I can give my time for robots for six weeks, but it's hard on my personal life, let alone adding four or more weeks to that. On the other hand, if we're not there, the students can't work, and that'd be doing a disservice to them. Eliminating bag and tag is not a fix for all teams in this position.

I understand that meeting more is hard. But the idea that you are using the same amount of time as every other team just isn't true. Teams are already building well past this "Stop Build Time". You could still stop at 45.5 days, if that's what you are currently choosing to do.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by nerdrock101

Lack of resources is one of the things we struggle with as well. We have very few dedicated mentors on our team (many of them are parents that float in and out) and very few members to boot. As a result, we meet nearly every night and weekend just to scrape a bot together. If build season were extended, we would have to continue that pace for much longer. I can give my time for robots for six weeks, but it's hard on my personal life, let alone adding four or more weeks to that. On the other hand, if we're not there, the students can't work, and that'd be doing a disservice to them. Eliminating bag and tag is not a fix for all teams in this position.

Meeting more is not hard for us. All of us are super dedicated, even working on code and stuff into wee hours in the night at our respective homes. We will do anything that could help us win. But that said, I still say that we need bag day. I see it as a challenge that teaches students valuable lessons in time management and crunch time that they can't learn in many other places.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

I understand, my point is that if it's internal, removing HQ's "Stop Build Day" doesn't prevent teams from implementing their own.

In all honesty, given extra time, would a team (no matter what they say about liking stop build day) actually stop building based on a internal bag day? I agree with some of your points Mr. Gregory. But I think the advantages of bag day outweigh the advantages of no bag.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

In all honesty, given extra time, would a team (no matter what they say about liking stop build day) actually stop building based on a internal bag day? I agree with some of your points Mr. Gregory. But I think the advantages of bag day outweigh the advantages of no bag.

You really lost me.

You want a day but you wont follow your own; arguing, "would a team actually stop building." That makes sense but then why do you want stop build day. There would still be a hard deadline. Its your first event.

[nerdrock101]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

I understand, my point is that if it's internal, removing HQ's "Stop Build Day" doesn't prevent teams from implementing their own.



I understand that meeting more is hard. But the idea that you are using the same amount of time as every other team just isn't true. Teams are already building well past this "Stop Build Time". You could still stop at 45.5 days, if that's what you are currently choosing to do.

Oh I absolutely understand and agree with you that teams don't use the same amount of time. My point was rather that teams would be, in a way, obligated to through competitive pressure and passion to help students get the best FIRST experience possible. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it would require a significant change in how we deal with an already problematic level of mentor burn out.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

In all honesty, given extra time, would a team (no matter what they say about liking stop build day) actually stop building based on a internal bag day?

Aye, be honest here. Be brutally honest. If people won't stop building based on an external bag day with some (albeit limited) enforcement, via a variety of legal methods, what makes some people think that people will stop building based on "We think we should stop building?"

Right. Not gonna happen.

So the question isn't "Do we remove Stop Build Day or not?" The question is really "Do we remove Stop Build Day OR do we put in some rules changes that enforce it--like, for example, reduced withholding, no out-of-bag time at all... Or even *gasp* shipping the robot to a neutral site?" Let's see... Shipping robots to all events not in districts ended for 2012 (and in districts even sooner)... out-of-bag started in MI District system in 2009... and witholding has been a thing since about 2009 if I recall correctly. Practice robots have been around since at least '04--and would be very hard to get rid of. Yeah. Not really a question.

I'm not really for removing the Stop Build Day. On the other hand, I can see where the suggestions to remove it are coming from, and sympathize. But then I wonder whether removing it will make things better or worse...

[AllenGregoryIV]

To the previous comments, I'm not trolling anyone. I truly believe that FIRST (HQ and the community) needs to stop telling people it's a 6 week build season. If that is helping us bring in sponsor dollars we are being dishonest. I know of few teams that don't use their WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE to at least do some work on their robots past the "Stop Build Day". I've tried to stop saying it or at least correct myself when I do, it's hard after all these years.

Originally Posted by nerdrock101

Oh I absolutely understand and agree with you that teams don't use the same amount of time. My point was rather that teams would be, in a way, obligated to through competitive pressure and passion to help students get the best FIRST experience possible. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it would require a significant change in how we deal with an already problematic level of mentor burn out.

Do you currently not feel pressure to work on your WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE past the stop build date? The rules in place today allow all teams to continue to work on the robot. The rule book encourages development of programming software after the "Stop Build Day" after the date as well.

[cbale2000]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

I really agree. When pitching FRC to my peers or strangers, and I show them our bot, they always ask "how long did that take you guys to build? several months?" The expression they have when I reply with 6 weeks is awesome.

Being able to challenge ourselves, and doing everything possible to get every last bit built within that time period is just plain fun. I mean sure, we are still working after build season end, but those "6 weeks" are truly super fun and worth it. I would not want to get rid of it.

Even if you expanded the definition of the build period to the start of competition season (because at that point, your robot should likely be "built", maybe just not working perfectly yet) even if you still allowed unlimited access, you could still say "8 weeks" and I would bet the reactions would not be that much different. It wouldn't be an entirely inaccurate thing to say to people, and I don't think any reasonable observer expects teams to NOT make improvements to their machines as the competition season progresses.

In reality, if you define build season as "when you stop all work on the robot", build season, as the rules work today, runs from January till your last competition, as late as April.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by cbale2000

Even if you expanded the definition to the start of competition season (because at that point, your robot should likely be "built", maybe just not working perfectly yet), you could still say "8 weeks" and I would bet the reactions would not be that much different.

Note, I never said that we need to have exactly a 6 week stop build date. I am not stating an opinion on whether or not to MOVE the stop date. I just don't like have NO build date at all, and being allowed to work as much as we want directly on the bot between regionals.

[nerdrock101]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

Do you currently not feel pressure to work on your WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE past the stop build date? The rules in place today allow all teams to continue to work on the robot. The rule book encourages development of programming software after the "Stop Build Day" after the date as well.

I will grant you that; we do spend time after stop build working on code and other small projects. However, it is with a much lower intensity than working on the actual bot simply because it is small projects.

I do see the benefits to eliminating bag and tag and I'd like to see it happen. I just foresee some drawbacks worth mentioning.