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Unread 08-09-2016, 20:22
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Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by waialua359 View Post
Here's something that no one has really elaborated on yet. What about student/mentor talent?
IMO, elite teams will always be elite teams no matter what rules you change. They are good not because they build 2 robots and continually iterate as the main reason. Its plain and simple.....talent.
I was blown away to here recently that teams could put in less than 1/2 the amount of time and build world class, Einstein ready robots.
I dont think you can do that with all the resources in the world or a change in schedule, without first and foremost the talent and experience to do so.
In Jim Zondag's white paper, he specifically names some example elite teams. Change the rules and they will STILL be elite.
1678 is not an amazing and successfully competitive team because we are talented. We got to where we are today with long hours of mostly well planned out hard work.

We could not have reached as far as we have without the practice robots we build that enable us to keep iterating our designs. In 2013 we were a unknown player to the greater FRC community, nobody knew who we were outside of California. Then we won our division after being turned down by our first 3 picks. We made it that far not because of talent, but because of working our butts off to make our robot ready to compete on the world stage every moment we were able. 2014 was much the same story for us. 2015 we had a good robot, not overly amazing, but our success was because of the time and work we put into developing our can grabbers. We finished the design of our final can grabbers the day before we left for Champs, not one team ever beat those can grabbers.

Our robots would still be good if we didn't build a practice bot, but they wouldn't be Einstein good. And a good robot is useless to a driver that can't drive it to it's potential.
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Unread 09-09-2016, 02:04
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Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

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Originally Posted by RoboChair View Post
1678 is not an amazing and successfully competitive team because we are talented. We got to where we are today with long hours of mostly well planned out hard work.

We could not have reached as far as we have without the practice robots we build that enable us to keep iterating our designs. In 2013 we were a unknown player to the greater FRC community, nobody knew who we were outside of California. Then we won our division after being turned down by our first 3 picks. We made it that far not because of talent, but because of working our butts off to make our robot ready to compete on the world stage every moment we were able. 2014 was much the same story for us. 2015 we had a good robot, not overly amazing, but our success was because of the time and work we put into developing our can grabbers. We finished the design of our final can grabbers the day before we left for Champs, not one team ever beat those can grabbers.

Our robots would still be good if we didn't build a practice bot, but they wouldn't be Einstein good. And a good robot is useless to a driver that can't drive it to it's potential.
Actually, it was 4.
I'd argue that we worked just as hard as you folks. I'd also argue that there are other teams that work even harder than we do but with results that are much less successful on the field. Is it because of talent?
You brought up some good points though. But let me also ask you this. Why was your can grabbers unbeatable? Everyone else in the world saw what 118 did early on during their unveil and week 1 event.
Perhaps....talent?
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Unread 09-09-2016, 03:19
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Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

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Originally Posted by waialua359 View Post
Is it because of talent?
I'd call it skill not talent. Talent often has a component of natural ability that can't be learned which is where i think he was making a point that be cause they worked hard they developed the ability and skill to be world champions.
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Unread 09-09-2016, 16:07
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Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by waialua359 View Post
Actually, it was 4.
I'd argue that we worked just as hard as you folks. I'd also argue that there are other teams that work even harder than we do but with results that are much less successful on the field. Is it because of talent?
You brought up some good points though. But let me also ask you this. Why was your can grabbers unbeatable? Everyone else in the world saw what 118 did early on during their unveil and week 1 event.
Perhaps....talent?
I still wouldn't say it's talent, it was mostly a somewhat reckless view of the safety implications. We were just crazier than everyone else so we put a LOT of surgical tubing on those things, cocking them was a 3 person operation. They hit the cans at somewhere in the neighborhood of 120 mph. The whole process of developing those grabbers had a HUGE pile of fail to get the final design.

One interesting thing I have noticed is a lot of teams seem to meet for short hours every or most days during build season(from what I keep reading here on CD). It's typically less efficient to do that from a productivity view, you end up loosing the first and last 15 minutes or so of your meeting times to getting started and cleaning up. That's a big deal when you only meet 3 hours. We get the vast majority of our work done on weekends because we work 9-5 which is 8 straight hours to do things. I know we get more done per unit of meeting time on the all day weekend meetings.

If I had to attribute our success on the field to just 3 things it would be the following in order of value.
1. How we deconstruct every element of the game and rules in our best attempt to determine what strategies will be used at the highest levels of play and selecting what features our robot must have in order to use those strategies, then and only then do we begin to come up with mechanisms to test and later design into a robot.(see post #342)
2. Heavily prototype key robot features to determine the variables that are important for them to succeed and continually iterate our designs and strategies until they work 100% of the time.
3. We put a lot of time and effort into training and practice for all our team members in the off season to maintain and expand our teams knowledge base. A big part of which is building a team culture where veteran students take on mentorship responsibilities with the newer students. In a given year I could give 15-20 students a working knowledge of mechanical fabrication or I could give 4 or 5 students a far greater depth of knowledge that they can then pass on to several others during the time they are on the team, greatly lessening the teaching burden on myself.

Number 2 is made easier by the removal or significant modification of Stop Build Day. Number 3 is also made much easier because when there is less immediate pressure to get something finished and into a bag there is more time to teach, mentor, and maintain the knowledge base of your team. I have seen many teams have a number of students graduate and see the results of the loss to their knowledge base because they were unable to train their juniors with the knowledge they gained over the years. It is so much easier to teach someone when you don't feel like the process is going to slow you down enough to where you will miss a deadline.(see post #337)

Now we do have talented people on our team that contribute a great deal to our overall success, but talent alone is worth nothing without the practice and training to use it well and the time and hard work to make valuable use of it. In almost every single case, talent just means you learn faster than the rest because you have the drive to learn and work hard on your own. Talent is not something you are born with, it's something you were inspired and driven to embrace.

Talent is never enough. With few exceptions the best players are the hardest workers. -Magic Johnson
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Unread 09-09-2016, 20:56
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Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

The great thing about Surveys are that usually the results are posted. I would expect FRC and Frank to release the survey results along with their response. I find it hard to believe that they would release this survey question without the possibility of significantly altering bag day procedures. My question is this.

Would any changes that might result go into effect this season, or would they be for 2017/2018?
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Unread 09-09-2016, 20:59
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Re: [FIRST EMAIL] Stop Build Day Survey

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Originally Posted by Joe Derrick View Post
The great thing about Surveys are that usually the results are posted. I would expect FRC and Frank to release the survey results along with their response. I find it hard to believe that they would release this survey question without the possibility of significantly altering bag day procedures. My question is this.

Would any changes that might result go into effect this season, or would they be for 2017/2018?
I in no way blame you for not knowing that they posted a follow up blog about this very subject:

http://www.firstinspires.org/robotic...rn-of-an-award

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank
Yesterday, I announced the opening of a survey in which we ask for feedback on Stop Build Day. I should have included the information that, regardless of the survey results, no significant changes will be made to the Stop Build Day system for the 2017 season. We would want to publish information relating to any substantial changes to the system many months in advance, hopefully not later than early- to mid-summer of the year before. So, for example, if we were intending to make major changes for the 2018 season, we would want to announce them in early- to mid-summer 2017. We know that teams order their lives around the build season, and it would be unfair of us to make any significant changes with less notice than that. I apologize for not including this information in yesterday’s blog, I certainly should have done so.

Note that we have already announced that FRC teams will have a world-wide, simultaneous stop-build time in 2017. I recognize that for some teams this change might be considered ‘significant’, and so required more notice than we gave, but my sense is this tweak is not likely to change the planning required for major family or personal events for too many folks.
Frank, remember how I said you needed to unify communication and over-communicate? Perhaps sending out another email with the clarification in it would have been in order.
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