pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder

[asid61]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I think it is a massive stretch to argue that the federal tax ID number for Ebay.com somehow qualifies you as a vendor. Literally anyone can setup an Ebay account.

You're essentially redefining these rules to do what you want, when you at this point clearly don't meet the intent of them. Saying 10 parts in stock is a "normal" amount?

This looks like great work and all that, but I don't think you can consider yourself an FRC legal vendor because you have an Ebay account and made a dozen of something. This seems like the exact situation the rule was written for.

The intent of the rule is to ensure that any team that wants to buy something can do so, and from a legitimate vendor. Ebay works through Paypal, offers a return service, and has various guarantees and restrictions on what people can sell. Many businesses, especially eastern Asian ones, sell almost exclusively on Ebay, Ali Express, and Alibaba. As a legitimate question (because I'm in the dark about this), what wouldn't qualify Ebay?
I know that teams buy and sell on Ebay and Aliexpress often, so if it is illegal as you say a lot of teams have unintentionally broken rules in the past. In particular, MVRT actually sold around 150 breakout boards for the Talon SRX back in 2015 through a mentor. 115 also used those for 2015 and 2016, and will probably continue using them for 2017 and onwards. Oddly enough, nobody brought up anything about Ebay not being a legitimate seller window back then, maybe because it was a team selling them rather than just an alumni.

I wish that keeping 10 in stock was very low, although I'm flattered that you think that I sell more than just a few of anything. In all seriousness, I think you're way overestimating how many people are interested in custom electronics. Even my cheapo PWM generator only sold about six (6) units, and that was my most useful device.
The bottom line is that very, very few teams have a marked interest in custom encoders, even (especially?) ones as cheap as this. Although it's true that I'm selling next to nothing, nothing is stopping you from buying one right now and letting me expand my stock for the season. My goal is to sell enough to start giving these away for free at competitions, and for every ~4 of these I can sell that's 1 more freebie that I can give away. If you don't think that I sell enough right now, please buy one so I can expand my stock to something that you think is normal. Don't just complain about the problem, do something about it.

Originally Posted by pwnageNick

I would also wonder about any certifications or testing that would need to be done due to it being an electrical device. I know when we were working on custom slip rings, we thought one part of being able to sell them as a vendor, we were worried we had to have them tested and rated, UL, etc.

If FIRST is willing to count an account on ebay then count be as surprised. I never got the impression that counted.

I will say I do not understand why FIRST feels it necessary to include section B. Not sure how that helps either party, the supplier or consumer both.

I loved your slip ring project, it was very well executed.
As far as testing and electrical stuff goes, this is nowhere near the power of a custom slip ring. I know that teams use custom breakouts all the time; in terms of power or usage, this isn't much different. It just has a fancy plastic case and a couple bearings. It poses as much risk as a bad crimp to your robot.
I'm not too clear on B either. Perhaps it's to prevent fake "teams" registered by vendors from selling en masse at competitions?


As a side note, I do want to open up a storefront for these kinds of things at some point. I'm thinking of selling MVRE-109s, hex bore encoders, and cheap PWM generators among a few other things. Does anybody know of a good platform that I could use to set up a website and process payments through Paypal with?

Originally Posted by Oblarg

If it does, the policy is sort of meaningless, methinks.

Honestly, if you're only going to have a stock of 10 or so, I have a hard time buying that as meeting the requirements of the policy, at least in any way that's consistent with the policy's intent. If an off-the-shelf resource is available to one team, it ought to be available to every team - a stock that limited really isn't, in practice, available to every team.

Else, what's preventing any team that wants to pre-machine parts from spinning off a handful of spares, opening an ebay account, and calling it a COTS product?

See above. If I sell 10 of these, I'm breaking a record for "profit made" and I might even be able to recoup my development investment. :| Right now, they are definitely available to every team that wants them, and that number is very low. I believe I have 6 or 8 people right now that have expressed an interest in purchasing a couple.

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by asid61

See above. If I sell 10 of these, I'm breaking a record for "profit made" and I might even be able to recoup my development investment. :| Right now, they are definitely available to every team that wants them, and that number is very low. I believe I have 6 or 8 people right now that have expressed an interest in purchasing a couple.

I'm not trying to impugn your motives here - I'm sure your intentions are good. But, you haven't addressed my point - if your setup satisfied the rule, what's stopping any team that wants to use parts they've developed outside of build season from making a few spares and starting an ebay account and calling it a COTS product?

[asid61]

Originally Posted by Oblarg

I'm not trying to impugn your motives here - I'm sure your intentions are good. But, you haven't addressed my point - if your setup satisfied the rule, what's stopping any team that wants to use parts they've developed outside of build season from making a few spares and starting an ebay account and calling it a COTS product?

I think we just found out why the "B" clause is there. The operations of the team and vendor should be separate.

Assuming you get around that, nothing, as long as they make it available to all teams and can get a turnaround of less than a week. For example if a team wanted to sell pneumatic wheels this year like WCPs, I'm sure a solid CNC could pull off making quite a few of those, especially early in the build season. I see your point though; the rule is clearly meant to prevent a team from just making a few and selling them. My argument is that I am meeting and exceeding the low demand for these products.

I'm curious as to what parts teams would sell this way. I've discussed selling custom wheels with someone before, but past that I can't imagine what a team would sell that would actually given them a considerable edge without having such a high demand that nobody would buy them.

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by asid61

I think we just found out why the "B" clause is there. The operations of the team and vendor should be separate.

I suppose it does come down to that clause - so long as you're making these without any resources from your former team, that's less-worrisome, though I still feel it might be a bit too close to something that could be used as an easy end-run around the fabricated parts restrictions.

[ollien]

I don't think what's going on here is by any means a stretch. EBay has a tax id, and asid61 is no longer affiliated with his team. He's fine.

That being said, let's consider a scenario that I don't think anyone would be opposed to. When 775pros were out of stock, I saw lots of teams selling them to each other. Would you consider this in violation of section A or B? I wouldn't.

All asid61 is doing is taking a custom (so technically fabricated) part, and selling it with a bunch of COTS parts attached. Worst case, it's a fabricated item, rather than a COTS item, per

A VENDER is a legitimate business source for COTS items that satisfies all of the following criteria.

(emphasis mine)

Just my 2¢.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by ollien

I don't think what's going on here is by any means a stretch. EBay has a tax id, and asid61 is no longer affiliated with his team. He's fine.

That being said, let's consider a scenario that I don't think anyone would be opposed to. When 775pros were out of stock, I saw lots of teams selling them to each other. Would you consider this in violation of section A or B? I wouldn't.

All asid61 is doing is taking a custom (so technically fabricated) part, and selling it with a bunch of COTS parts attached. Worst case, it's a fabricated item, rather than a COTS item, per


(emphasis mine)

Just my 2¢.

The fact that ebay has or does not have a Federal Tax ID number is irrelevant to this discussion. Ebay is nothing more than a market place or transaction facilitator if you will. The do not own nor sell the products that are sold through them. The same thing goes for the Amazon market place, they facilitate transactions for sellers of products that they don't own. That is why each listing will state "sold and shipped by Amazon" for inventory they own and "sold and shipped by xxx" for products that they do not own.

That by no means indicates that you can not buy products from ebay or Amazon just that their respective Tax ID numbers are not transitive and thus do not mean that the seller qualifies as a Vendor under FRC rules.

On the other hand legitimate businesses that are organized as sole proprietorships are nor required to have a Federal Tax ID number that business will report its income under the sole proprietor's SSN. However having a SSN does not mean that a person would meet the definition of a Vendor under past FRC rules, they would need what ever licenses businesses are required in their locality to actually be a business.

[ollien]

-snip- I can't read. Please disregard

[asid61]

Originally Posted by Mr V

The fact that ebay has or does not have a Federal Tax ID number is irrelevant to this discussion. Ebay is nothing more than a market place or transaction facilitator if you will. The do not own nor sell the products that are sold through them. The same thing goes for the Amazon market place, they facilitate transactions for sellers of products that they don't own. That is why each listing will state "sold and shipped by Amazon" for inventory they own and "sold and shipped by xxx" for products that they do not own.

That by no means indicates that you can not buy products from ebay or Amazon just that their respective Tax ID numbers are not transitive and thus do not mean that the seller qualifies as a Vendor under FRC rules.

On the other hand legitimate businesses that are organized as sole proprietorships are nor required to have a Federal Tax ID number that business will report its income under the sole proprietor's SSN. However having a SSN does not mean that a person would meet the definition of a Vendor under past FRC rules, they would need what ever licenses businesses are required in their locality to actually be a business.

Thank you for the information, that all makes sense.
I tried to fill out the form for running a small business out of my garage for Cupertino. It doesn't look like there are any particular fees to pay (yet), so I might as well just register for a license and get some form of business ID.
In any case, anybody who would have bought one has already been scared off by the possibility of not being able to use it during competition, so it's not even worth doing at this point. Kind of a shame, but getting the license is a good idea in the long run anyway.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by asid61

Thank you for the information, that all makes sense.
I tried to fill out the form for running a small business out of my garage for Cupertino. It doesn't look like there are any particular fees to pay (yet), so I might as well just register for a license and get some form of business ID.
In any case, anybody who would have bought one has already been scared off by the possibility of not being able to use it during competition, so it's not even worth doing at this point. Kind of a shame, but getting the license is a good idea in the long run anyway.

Why not go the other route and just ask FIRST HQ if you are a vendor or what you would need to do to become one.

I'm sure HQ wants people making products for FRC teams. You may not be able to meet their terms now (or maybe you are) but you might be able to in the near future.

[asid61]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

Why not go the other route and just ask FIRST HQ if you are a vendor or what you would need to do to become one.

I'm sure HQ wants people making products for FRC teams. You may not be able to meet their terms now (or maybe you are) but you might be able to in the near future.

I emailed HQ a few hours ago asking what I can do. It shouldn't be too hard, hopefully.

[marshall]

While we wait on a legal ruling... can we get some real pictures?

[Gdeaver]

Take some of your cold hard earned cash, buy a bunch and work with rev robotics Andymark or Vex pro to distribute. Is this not the capitalist way?

[DaveL]

This sounds like a great product. More capable than a Grayhill and at 1/3 the cost. Starting a business is a very exciting time!

As others have said, you might need an approval from an electronic equipment certifying agency like UL. If you decide to sell thru Digi-Key, they may have additional requirements.

Let me know if you need help creating a website.

If you expect to ramp up production, you can form an limited liability Company (LLC) and run it as a sole proprietor for tax and liability reasons. I would expect you can do this for free. However, Calif may require payment for a state business license.

In Washington, you can get free business help thru the library from retired accountants. Maybe there is something like this in your state.

When filling out your taxes, your business expenses can be claimed as a "pass thru activity". Just fill out a few extra pages on a 1040 form. Use Turbo Tax to help.

Doing it this way also allows you to deduct all expenses related to creating this product including computers (may have to deprecate), cost of the room used to build and mail the product, plus the cost of furniture and machining equipment.

Dave
Build Mentor and Past UX Design Consultant

[rsisk]

There are now 4 less in stock. This is pretty cool at $18 each. Going to play around with them on our robots from last season.

[sanddrag]

I would like to see these in person at Chezy Champs. Please be sure to stop by the 696 pit area. Ask for Daniel or Alexander.