pic: MVRE-109, high-recision shafted encoder

[asid61]

Originally Posted by Oblarg

I'm not trying to impugn your motives here - I'm sure your intentions are good. But, you haven't addressed my point - if your setup satisfied the rule, what's stopping any team that wants to use parts they've developed outside of build season from making a few spares and starting an ebay account and calling it a COTS product?

I think we just found out why the "B" clause is there. The operations of the team and vendor should be separate.

Assuming you get around that, nothing, as long as they make it available to all teams and can get a turnaround of less than a week. For example if a team wanted to sell pneumatic wheels this year like WCPs, I'm sure a solid CNC could pull off making quite a few of those, especially early in the build season. I see your point though; the rule is clearly meant to prevent a team from just making a few and selling them. My argument is that I am meeting and exceeding the low demand for these products.

I'm curious as to what parts teams would sell this way. I've discussed selling custom wheels with someone before, but past that I can't imagine what a team would sell that would actually given them a considerable edge without having such a high demand that nobody would buy them.

[Oblarg]

Originally Posted by asid61

I think we just found out why the "B" clause is there. The operations of the team and vendor should be separate.

I suppose it does come down to that clause - so long as you're making these without any resources from your former team, that's less-worrisome, though I still feel it might be a bit too close to something that could be used as an easy end-run around the fabricated parts restrictions.

[ollien]

I don't think what's going on here is by any means a stretch. EBay has a tax id, and asid61 is no longer affiliated with his team. He's fine.

That being said, let's consider a scenario that I don't think anyone would be opposed to. When 775pros were out of stock, I saw lots of teams selling them to each other. Would you consider this in violation of section A or B? I wouldn't.

All asid61 is doing is taking a custom (so technically fabricated) part, and selling it with a bunch of COTS parts attached. Worst case, it's a fabricated item, rather than a COTS item, per

A VENDER is a legitimate business source for COTS items that satisfies all of the following criteria.

(emphasis mine)

Just my 2¢.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by ollien

I don't think what's going on here is by any means a stretch. EBay has a tax id, and asid61 is no longer affiliated with his team. He's fine.

That being said, let's consider a scenario that I don't think anyone would be opposed to. When 775pros were out of stock, I saw lots of teams selling them to each other. Would you consider this in violation of section A or B? I wouldn't.

All asid61 is doing is taking a custom (so technically fabricated) part, and selling it with a bunch of COTS parts attached. Worst case, it's a fabricated item, rather than a COTS item, per


(emphasis mine)

Just my 2¢.

The fact that ebay has or does not have a Federal Tax ID number is irrelevant to this discussion. Ebay is nothing more than a market place or transaction facilitator if you will. The do not own nor sell the products that are sold through them. The same thing goes for the Amazon market place, they facilitate transactions for sellers of products that they don't own. That is why each listing will state "sold and shipped by Amazon" for inventory they own and "sold and shipped by xxx" for products that they do not own.

That by no means indicates that you can not buy products from ebay or Amazon just that their respective Tax ID numbers are not transitive and thus do not mean that the seller qualifies as a Vendor under FRC rules.

On the other hand legitimate businesses that are organized as sole proprietorships are nor required to have a Federal Tax ID number that business will report its income under the sole proprietor's SSN. However having a SSN does not mean that a person would meet the definition of a Vendor under past FRC rules, they would need what ever licenses businesses are required in their locality to actually be a business.

[ollien]

-snip- I can't read. Please disregard

[asid61]

Originally Posted by Mr V

The fact that ebay has or does not have a Federal Tax ID number is irrelevant to this discussion. Ebay is nothing more than a market place or transaction facilitator if you will. The do not own nor sell the products that are sold through them. The same thing goes for the Amazon market place, they facilitate transactions for sellers of products that they don't own. That is why each listing will state "sold and shipped by Amazon" for inventory they own and "sold and shipped by xxx" for products that they do not own.

That by no means indicates that you can not buy products from ebay or Amazon just that their respective Tax ID numbers are not transitive and thus do not mean that the seller qualifies as a Vendor under FRC rules.

On the other hand legitimate businesses that are organized as sole proprietorships are nor required to have a Federal Tax ID number that business will report its income under the sole proprietor's SSN. However having a SSN does not mean that a person would meet the definition of a Vendor under past FRC rules, they would need what ever licenses businesses are required in their locality to actually be a business.

Thank you for the information, that all makes sense.
I tried to fill out the form for running a small business out of my garage for Cupertino. It doesn't look like there are any particular fees to pay (yet), so I might as well just register for a license and get some form of business ID.
In any case, anybody who would have bought one has already been scared off by the possibility of not being able to use it during competition, so it's not even worth doing at this point. Kind of a shame, but getting the license is a good idea in the long run anyway.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by asid61

Thank you for the information, that all makes sense.
I tried to fill out the form for running a small business out of my garage for Cupertino. It doesn't look like there are any particular fees to pay (yet), so I might as well just register for a license and get some form of business ID.
In any case, anybody who would have bought one has already been scared off by the possibility of not being able to use it during competition, so it's not even worth doing at this point. Kind of a shame, but getting the license is a good idea in the long run anyway.

Why not go the other route and just ask FIRST HQ if you are a vendor or what you would need to do to become one.

I'm sure HQ wants people making products for FRC teams. You may not be able to meet their terms now (or maybe you are) but you might be able to in the near future.

[asid61]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

Why not go the other route and just ask FIRST HQ if you are a vendor or what you would need to do to become one.

I'm sure HQ wants people making products for FRC teams. You may not be able to meet their terms now (or maybe you are) but you might be able to in the near future.

I emailed HQ a few hours ago asking what I can do. It shouldn't be too hard, hopefully.

[marshall]

While we wait on a legal ruling... can we get some real pictures?

[Gdeaver]

Take some of your cold hard earned cash, buy a bunch and work with rev robotics Andymark or Vex pro to distribute. Is this not the capitalist way?

[DaveL]

This sounds like a great product. More capable than a Grayhill and at 1/3 the cost. Starting a business is a very exciting time!

As others have said, you might need an approval from an electronic equipment certifying agency like UL. If you decide to sell thru Digi-Key, they may have additional requirements.

Let me know if you need help creating a website.

If you expect to ramp up production, you can form an limited liability Company (LLC) and run it as a sole proprietor for tax and liability reasons. I would expect you can do this for free. However, Calif may require payment for a state business license.

In Washington, you can get free business help thru the library from retired accountants. Maybe there is something like this in your state.

When filling out your taxes, your business expenses can be claimed as a "pass thru activity". Just fill out a few extra pages on a 1040 form. Use Turbo Tax to help.

Doing it this way also allows you to deduct all expenses related to creating this product including computers (may have to deprecate), cost of the room used to build and mail the product, plus the cost of furniture and machining equipment.

Dave
Build Mentor and Past UX Design Consultant

[rsisk]

There are now 4 less in stock. This is pretty cool at $18 each. Going to play around with them on our robots from last season.

[sanddrag]

I would like to see these in person at Chezy Champs. Please be sure to stop by the 696 pit area. Ask for Daniel or Alexander.

[AdamHeard]

The only potential issue I see is being able to source quantity (which can be solved).

As long as Asid is selling these as a sole propietership and not a wholly owned subsidiary of 115 i don't see the issue with the rest of the rules.

It's surprisingly easy to be a business in the US as a sole prop in terms of paperwork.

That being said, sure distribution would likely be better with Andymark etc, but he doesn't have to go that route.

[Cothron Theiss]

For those of us who know very little about using encoders, how would you use this and how does this compare to other encoders on the market?