Waterjet/Laser cutters in-house?

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

AFAIK, 359 is the only team that has a production style waterjet in their shop. They'd be good people to ask for this.

Unless you have a pretty full set of other machines, the price that goes into a waterjet is probably better spent on the combined set of; manual mill(s), manual lathe(s), Drill press (etc...), 4x4 or 4x8 Gantry Router, and a VMC.

A small correction... 1983 has an OMAX Maxiem 1515 "production" waterjet in our shop also. We actually had ours before 359. We moved into a new high school three years ago and I got to help design our "proto-typing" shop.
We just didn't bring it up on CD.

We decided on a waterjet for a number of reasons, not the least of which was that one of our sponsors is OMAX (who make waterjets) Actually they are the original inventor of the technology and along with FLOW waterjets are located here in the Seattle Area.

OMAX makes a series of less expensive waterjets (the Maxiem series) that are well less than $100 K including everything. We paid full price for ours after obtaining a federal grant for our new school. I don't think we paid more than $75,000

We do not find that the estimates of operating costs mentioned earlier are as high as stated. I don't budget for anything for our waterjet and we have mentors that were trained at OMAX that do all of the operating. We have a source for free abrasive (its not really sand... it is crushed garnet) and we go through about a ton or a ton and 1/2 of abrasive a year. Even if you have to purchase it .. a full year's worth is well less than $1000.

We cut for many teams in the area and our shop is pretty busy during build season helping other teams cut parts and also showing how to do fabrication that utilizes the waterjet.

The only costs we have are water filters and electricity which is paid for by the school. The water filters are donated by OMAX and they also help with any maintenance. Occasionally we have a few other parts to purchase/get donated. The one large advantage of a waterjet over a CNC mill is that tooling is almost non-required other than the tip unit. Of course the mill can do things the waterjet can't but it is also much slower.

Someone mentioned the rebuilding of the pump... which could be pricey but it is not that difficult actually and in the OMAX training (which is included with the machine) the trainees do a complete pump rebuild. The parts are not that much either.

There are definitely some quirks to keeping the abrasive flowing and some other light maintenance activities but the operation is really pretty easy. I am not saying it is as easy as a laser cutter (high school type) but it can cut literally any material and our machine can handle 5' X 4' sheets.

I chose the waterjet because I believe that designing in 2d CNC is a simpler way to start learning to design. It requires the student to think about the fabrication while designing and because we are in an Aerospace Industrial area... (50 feet from our shop is an airpark with the original 747 and 787 and a number of other planes from biplanes to WW2 bombers, and a Space Shuttle full scale demo from NASA is in a building on our same block)

If you want any other information regarding setting up a waterjet or using one I would be happy to respond. We have found it to be incredibly valuable to both our team and the 20+ teams that we have helped build their robots by cutting their designs on this machine.

thanks
and if you are in the area... come by and take a look.

[bstew]

3928 has a Flow Mach 2 waterjet in our building. We have used it to cut some of our parts since 2015. Due to the taper in the cut, we have to drill/ream out some of the holes, but it is still very convenient. I would not recommend getting one for only your team due to cost, but finding one that someone is willing to let you use works well for us. Thanks Iowa State!

If you have any questions regarding it, I will do my best to answer them.

[AdamHeard]

This is great information, thanks for correcting me!

Do you the process would be repeatable w/o so much support from Omax?

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

A small correction... 1983 has an OMAX Maxiem 1515 "production" waterjet in our shop also. We actually had ours before 359. We moved into a new high school three years ago and I got to help design our "proto-typing" shop.
We just didn't bring it up on CD.

We decided on a waterjet for a number of reasons, not the least of which was that one of our sponsors is OMAX (who make waterjets) Actually they are the original inventor of the technology and along with FLOW waterjets are located here in the Seattle Area.

OMAX makes a series of less expensive waterjets (the Maxiem series) that are well less than $100 K including everything. We paid full price for ours after obtaining a federal grant for our new school. I don't think we paid more than $75,000

We do not find that the estimates of operating costs mentioned earlier are as high as stated. I don't budget for anything for our waterjet and we have mentors that were trained at OMAX that do all of the operating. We have a source for free abrasive (its not really sand... it is crushed garnet) and we go through about a ton or a ton and 1/2 of abrasive a year. Even if you have to purchase it .. a full year's worth is well less than $1000.

We cut for many teams in the area and our shop is pretty busy during build season helping other teams cut parts and also showing how to do fabrication that utilizes the waterjet.

The only costs we have are water filters and electricity which is paid for by the school. The water filters are donated by OMAX and they also help with any maintenance. Occasionally we have a few other parts to purchase/get donated. The one large advantage of a waterjet over a CNC mill is that tooling is almost non-required other than the tip unit. Of course the mill can do things the waterjet can't but it is also much slower.

Someone mentioned the rebuilding of the pump... which could be pricey but it is not that difficult actually and in the OMAX training (which is included with the machine) the trainees do a complete pump rebuild. The parts are not that much either.

There are definitely some quirks to keeping the abrasive flowing and some other light maintenance activities but the operation is really pretty easy. I am not saying it is as easy as a laser cutter (high school type) but it can cut literally any material and our machine can handle 5' X 4' sheets.

I chose the waterjet because I believe that designing in 2d CNC is a simpler way to start learning to design. It requires the student to think about the fabrication while designing and because we are in an Aerospace Industrial area... (50 feet from our shop is an airpark with the original 747 and 787 and a number of other planes from biplanes to WW2 bombers, and a Space Shuttle full scale demo from NASA is in a building on our same block)

If you want any other information regarding setting up a waterjet or using one I would be happy to respond. We have found it to be incredibly valuable to both our team and the 20+ teams that we have helped build their robots by cutting their designs on this machine.

thanks
and if you are in the area... come by and take a look.

[Bob Steele]

I think it is repeatable. OMAX is very interested in getting waterjets into educational settings and I think they would be very receptive to helping.
They were actually working on a very small machine for that market but they do not have it in production yet. The issue is getting a small pump to operate it. The present pump is substantial and runs on 440 volts. If they can do something smaller it would rally help the footprint.

Of course it didn't hurt that the main office is just 40 minutes away in our case but it is doable.... if anyone is interested in pursuing this just message me and I can put you with the right people at OMAX

[Jcarbon]

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss

One thing I'll throw out there is that I've been working with a CNC Plasma Cutter lately, and I think they could be great for teams. They typically run from $5,000 to $20,000. Parts often require cleaning and some post-processing after they're done, and plasma cutting doesn't hold tolerances as tightly as waterjetting, but there are ways around that. I think a CNC Plasma cutter could be a powerful tool in the right team's hands.

We use a CNC plasma cutter that we have access to from a sponsor. We use it to cut our chassis and this year some parts of our intake. The tolerances are fine for us, and it's pretty quick and easy to use. It's true that parts need to be cleaned up after they're done, but that's what freshmen are for, right?

[jman4747]

Waterjets and lasers are AMAZING when you don't own it... Finding some place that will cut parts out on a jet or even laser for free isn't all that difficult and lead times are generally better than trying to outsource milling and turning jobs. Meanwhile a mill or a late are much cheaper to buy/own. Basically save up for a mill or lathe and find a sponsor for the 2D stuff.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

A small correction... 1983 has an OMAX Maxiem 1515 "production" waterjet in our shop also. We actually had ours before 359. We moved into a new high school three years ago and I got to help design our "proto-typing" shop.
We just didn't bring it up on CD.

We decided on a waterjet for a number of reasons, not the least of which was that one of our sponsors is OMAX (who make waterjets) Actually they are the original inventor of the technology and along with FLOW waterjets are located here in the Seattle Area.

OMAX makes a series of less expensive waterjets (the Maxiem series) that are well less than $100 K including everything. We paid full price for ours after obtaining a federal grant for our new school. I don't think we paid more than $75,000

We do not find that the estimates of operating costs mentioned earlier are as high as stated. I don't budget for anything for our waterjet and we have mentors that were trained at OMAX that do all of the operating. We have a source for free abrasive (its not really sand... it is crushed garnet) and we go through about a ton or a ton and 1/2 of abrasive a year. Even if you have to purchase it .. a full year's worth is well less than $1000.

We cut for many teams in the area and our shop is pretty busy during build season helping other teams cut parts and also showing how to do fabrication that utilizes the waterjet.

The only costs we have are water filters and electricity which is paid for by the school. The water filters are donated by OMAX and they also help with any maintenance. Occasionally we have a few other parts to purchase/get donated. The one large advantage of a waterjet over a CNC mill is that tooling is almost non-required other than the tip unit. Of course the mill can do things the waterjet can't but it is also much slower.

Someone mentioned the rebuilding of the pump... which could be pricey but it is not that difficult actually and in the OMAX training (which is included with the machine) the trainees do a complete pump rebuild. The parts are not that much either.

There are definitely some quirks to keeping the abrasive flowing and some other light maintenance activities but the operation is really pretty easy. I am not saying it is as easy as a laser cutter (high school type) but it can cut literally any material and our machine can handle 5' X 4' sheets.

I chose the waterjet because I believe that designing in 2d CNC is a simpler way to start learning to design. It requires the student to think about the fabrication while designing and because we are in an Aerospace Industrial area... (50 feet from our shop is an airpark with the original 747 and 787 and a number of other planes from biplanes to WW2 bombers, and a Space Shuttle full scale demo from NASA is in a building on our same block)

If you want any other information regarding setting up a waterjet or using one I would be happy to respond. We have found it to be incredibly valuable to both our team and the 20+ teams that we have helped build their robots by cutting their designs on this machine.

thanks
and if you are in the area... come by and take a look.

Cory and Bob, thanks for sharing. That's a lot of great info where I can validate many of what you folks have said. As far as tolerances go, I'm not the person to provide any input other than having to order garnet and the tips/head/other maintenance parts as mentioned.
When we first got the machine, we were worried about the continual maintenance of owning such a machine and the cost to maintain.
In my opinion, if you can afford one, that is the only hurdle I would worry about and not let the other concerns deter you from getting one.
I actually asked Bob about his machine prior to getting ours. Our table size is larger, but an overkill for FRC applications.

I have no regrets about our purchase because its used almost daily M-F. One of our newer mentors has been using it religiously, for jobs outside of FRC. We were able to partner with local businesses, hire students, and use it to raise funds at the start of last school year.
In 2016 alone, we have generated almost $40,000 so far in funding for our program. This is in addition to the grants, donations, and fundraiser we normally do for FRC. We now have many other companies that are asking us to either do jobs or develop prototypes/products for them.
Its a win-win for us because our students are involved in the decision making and process of these projects as part of our engineering entrepreneurship program of study.

I also wanted to highlight a key point made by Bob. Because it is virtually a 2D machine, our students have learned how to use it much faster and easier than our mills and lathes. Its a good starting point in learning how to design and build vs. the high learning curve of operating a mill/lathe, and especially our mini-mill. Designing with the right tool for the right application, tool pathing, and tolerances involve a lot of experience for a basic mill and lathe.

The best part of having our own jet in our shop during FRC build season is the accuracy in which it cuts and the speed! Although we spend a lot of time during the build season in the shop, we can find time to sit around because the jet does most of the main cuts for us in a relatively short amount of time. For a team like ours that make a LOT of mistakes. No problem, slap another sheet on the bed, make the revisions, and press start again.
No waiting for sponsors, no planning ahead, and no extra costs to outsource. We make parts whenever we want, 24/7.

[Mike Schreiber]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

AFAIK, 359 is the only team that has a production style waterjet in their shop. They'd be good people to ask for this.

Unless you have a pretty full set of other machines, the price that goes into a waterjet is probably better spent on the combined set of; manual mill(s), manual lathe(s), Drill press (etc...), 4x4 or 4x8 Gantry Router, and a VMC.

We have one in our shop at the Milford Proving Grounds central machine shop. GM uses it during the day and covers operating cost and upkeep, it's shared between 67, 548, and 3707 in the evenings / weekends and occasionally other GM teams during build season. Obviously our perspective on it is a little different than 359's since we're using our sponsors and not covering the costs ourselves, even if it is right in our shop and accessible anytime.

The waterjet is a fantastic time saver. We'd be in trouble if we didn't have the ability to design a part or bracket and have it ready to bend within the hour. It's amazing to be able to have a sensor mount, motor mount, frame brace, or any other sheet metal part you can imagine in your hand within an hour of when you dream it up.

In general we are mostly mentor run on the waterjet due to the cost of replacement parts if you make a mistake, 2 years ago we trained up a student that is able to run it pretty well. The whole process is pretty messy, but the shop has it in it's own room so it isn't too much hassle.