pic: Ultimate chain tool project

[Bryce2471]

Originally Posted by Steven Smith

Yup, the DarkSoul tool is sized such that there is a pocket that generates a hard stop when the pin is hanging in just the outer link. This frees the chain to separate, and the pin stays stuck in the outer link.

It can be a little tricky otherwise to align the pin back into the hole for the outer link such that when you apply force it goes in, versus binding up slightly crooked. Leaving the pin in the link makes this a non-issue.

Understand how that process works. I have done it before (although not with a dark soul tool). I just thought that designing a tool that could reassemble a pin after it was entirely removed would be an improvement.

The idea of the current design is that it would have a channel for the old pin to be loaded into, such that the pin would automatically be aligned by the tool.

Are you saying that this design would not work as intended, or would not be an improvement? I guess I'm not sure why people think pressing the pin part way out is a better solution, when it requires a certain width of chain, and that the pin does not accidentally fall out.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Bryce2471

Understand how that process works. I have done it before (although not with a dark soul tool). I just thought that designing a tool that could reassemble a pin after it was entirely removed would be an improvement.

The idea of the current design is that it would have a channel for the old pin to be loaded into, such that the pin would automatically be aligned by the tool.

Are you saying that this design would not work as intended, or would not be an improvement? I guess I'm not sure why people think pressing the pin part way out is a better solution, when it requires a certain width of chain, and that the pin does not accidentally fall out.

It is a lot harder to get the pin started and properly aligned, without deforming the pin / hole / chain link, if it is fully removed from the chain. It doesn't really require "a certain width of chain" any more than a size specific chain breaker already does (like these, which require 25 or 35 chain). The pin doesn't fall out that easily but you do have to be a little careful.

Not saying this wouldn't work, though. Maybe you can machine a matching block that slips into the pocket with the relief / hardstop set for the right distance to allow this? That way you have a tool that can do both partial and full removal.

[Steven Smith]

Are you saying that this design would not work as intended, or would not be an improvement? I guess I'm not sure why people think pressing the pin part way out is a better solution, when it requires a certain width of chain, and that the pin does not accidentally fall out.

It was less a comment on your design and more a comment on my experience with the DarkSoul tool. The pin is a press fit in the outerlink, so if it is still fully in the outer link, it is not going to fall out very easily while you are handling it.

As it is a press fit, even under perfect alignment, it is having to generate some force before it slips back into the hole. That force can force things out of alignment if everything is not perfectly restrained. Perfect restraint can lead to some tolerance stack-up issues in an actual part/tool. It is my opinion that leaving the pin in the outer link is the simpler solution, but I'm also interested to see you try it your way and validate/invalidate our observations.

[asid61]

Originally Posted by Bryce2471

I don't know if you already got this or not, but this tool is hopefully designed such that it can press a pin back into place after it has been entirely removed.
Are you suggesting that it would be better to design for pushing a pin in that has only been partially removed? Maybe that would be easier.

Yes, I have thought about this. Testing should show if it is helpful or not.

I did mean to do it that way (partially remove a pin so it stays attached to a plate) but...
Is the pin supposed to go where the mandrel is after it's been fully pushed out in order to push it in? That makes this a lot easier. As in, push the pin up the hole the mandrel pokes out of, put the chain pieces to be attached on the guides, then press back in?

Originally Posted by Steven Smith

Yup, the DarkSoul tool is sized such that there is a pocket that generates a hard stop when the pin is hanging in just the outer link. This frees the chain to separate, and the pin stays stuck in the outer link.

It can be a little tricky otherwise to align the pin back into the hole for the outer link such that when you apply force it goes in, versus binding up slightly crooked. Leaving the pin in the link makes this a non-issue.

I've actually never been able to get the Dark Sould hardstop to act like one. I always have to get it most of the way, pull the chain out, try and tug the chain apart, and remove a pin a bit at a time to get it perfect. What #25 chain are you using / where are you getting it?

[Chak]

Originally Posted by asid61

I've actually never been able to get the Dark Sould hardstop to act like one. I always have to get it most of the way, pull the chain out, try and tug the chain apart, and remove a pin a bit at a time to get it perfect. What #25 chain are you using / where are you getting it?

The hard stop is made of aluminum and the mandrel is made of steel, so the mandrel+thread is strong enough to punch a hole in the hardstop. At least, that's the reason why many of our dark soul chain tools' hardstops don't work like they're supposed to. If you're careful with the new and shiny dark soul chain tools the hardstop should still work as intended.

[Bryce2471]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

It is a lot harder to get the pin started and properly aligned, without deforming the pin / hole / chain link, if it is fully removed from the chain. It doesn't really require "a certain width of chain" any more than a size specific chain breaker already does (like these, which require 25 or 35 chain). The pin doesn't fall out that easily but you do have to be a little careful.

Not saying this wouldn't work, though. Maybe you can machine a matching block that slips into the pocket with the relief / hardstop set for the right distance to allow this? That way you have a tool that can do both partial and full removal.

Good idea with the insertable hard stop. However, after the pin was pressed part way out, I'm not sure how you would get the chain turned around in the tool so it could be put back together, because the pin would be sticking out...

Originally Posted by Steven Smith

It was less a comment on your design and more a comment on my experience with the DarkSoul tool. The pin is a press fit in the outerlink, so if it is still fully in the outer link, it is not going to fall out very easily while you are handling it.

As it is a press fit, even under perfect alignment, it is having to generate some force before it slips back into the hole. That force can force things out of alignment if everything is not perfectly restrained. Perfect restraint can lead to some tolerance stack-up issues in an actual part/tool. It is my opinion that leaving the pin in the outer link is the simpler solution, but I'm also interested to see you try it your way and validate/invalidate our observations.

Good insight. You are probably right that pressing the pin part way out is the simpler solution. I'm also curious to see how the tool will work.

Originally Posted by asid61

Is the pin supposed to go where the mandrel is after it's been fully pushed out in order to push it in? That makes this a lot easier. As in, push the pin up the hole the mandrel pokes out of, put the chain pieces to be attached on the guides, then press back in?

That is the idea. The threads chosen also have a minor diameter that is almost exactly the diameter of the chain pins being pressed, so there should be nowhere for the pin to go except into the chain links.

[Steven Smith]

I've actually never been able to get the Dark Sould hardstop to act like one. I always have to get it most of the way, pull the chain out, try and tug the chain apart, and remove a pin a bit at a time to get it perfect. What #25 chain are you using / where are you getting it?

Busted... my comments with our DarkSoul was based on how I assumed it would work... had someone not busted the pocket out the same way as yours. We mainly use the VexPro chain (not that it is particularly different, but it is the source). I go until it is close and just visually align the pin to the back of where the pocket used to be. It's repeatable enough to go fairly quickly, and I assumed with a back wall and paying attention to the torque, it would work better (as intended).

Back to the OP though, really just encourage you to make some chips and let us know. Making a chain breaker is on my list somewhere behind too many other projects, but it's on the top third of the list for sure. If you can come out with something that works, I'm sure there will be a few interested people.

[asid61]

Originally Posted by Steven Smith

Busted... my comments with our DarkSoul was based on how I assumed it would work... had someone not busted the pocket out the same way as yours. We mainly use the VexPro chain (not that it is particularly different, but it is the source). I go until it is close and just visually align the pin to the back of where the pocket used to be. It's repeatable enough to go fairly quickly, and I assumed with a back wall and paying attention to the torque, it would work better (as intended).

Back to the OP though, really just encourage you to make some chips and let us know. Making a chain breaker is on my list somewhere behind too many other projects, but it's on the top third of the list for sure. If you can come out with something that works, I'm sure there will be a few interested people.

Hm if that's the case I think that maybe the Dark Soul tool is designed to allow users to completely press out links, perhaps to make cleaner breaks.

[dradel]

any chance of getting the cad files for theses?

[Bryce2471]

Originally Posted by dradel

any chance of getting the cad files for theses?

Do you prefer inventor or STEP?

[dradel]

To be honest I am not sure. I'd have to check with my machinist, but I think step will work.

[GeeTwo]

Regarding the "push the pin out" and the Dark Soul tool: My experience is that once you use a Dark Soul tool to break heavy duty #25 chain (e.g. Vex), you will not be able to use it conveniently on regular duty chain again, because the pin will be pushed out before you hit a stop. For precisely this reason, we have two dark soul tools, one tagged "HD only" and the other "RD only". We keep the HD chain in one bin, the RD chain in another bin, and the tools in their respective bins. So far, the "RD" tool is still in usable shape. If the tool gets messed up, I suspect that we shall simply toss all of our RD chain; it'll be less expensive than getting another tool every year or so.