Discussion: Release Team Field Drawings Early

[Knufire]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Building the 2015 and 2016 fields were a pretty significant drain on 5188's resources (mainly in manpower), and didn't really get done until very late in build season (~Week 5). We ended up on relying on teams who had access to reasonably accurate field elements from hosting kickoff events and were gracious enough to share their prototyping results with us.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Knufire

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Building the 2015 and 2016 fields were a pretty significant drain on 5188's resources (mainly in manpower), and didn't really get done until very late in build season (~Week 5). We ended up on relying on teams who had access to reasonably accurate field elements from hosting kickoff events and were gracious enough to share their prototyping results with us.

This brings up the unspoken advantage that kickoff host teams have over the rest of us. They show of the field elements at kick off, then get to keep them for the season.

Last year, we had an army of parents building field elements Saturday/Sunday of kickoff, but it still wasn't enough to get everything done. I'd at least like to enjoy the same advantage that kickoff hosts do.

-Mike

[bkahl]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

This brings up the unspoken advantage that kickoff host teams have over the rest of us. They show of the field elements at kick off, then get to keep them for the season.

Sigh...TO GET BACK ON TRACK....

To build the field for a kickoff, I'm fairly certain you have to sign some kind of NDA to see the field drawings. This prevents any teams who have access to the drawings from spreading them to others and to their own team members who have not yet seen the field.

I don't see an issue with opening this access to anyone who wants to sign the NDA, regardless on whether or not the build is for a Kickoff event. I think opening this to mentors only is a reasonable measure to ensure that the students are still getting the "kickoff experience".

125 builds the field elements for the local kick-off event (I am not involved- I'm home in CT on break during the build), and it was really nice to have everything ready to go on Day 1. From what I understand, it took the contingency of mentors a dew days work to get the elements done. I can definitely see where an advantage comes into play, and how the field build can be especially challenging when most of the team would rather get "robot-work" done.

However, before we release the field drawings early, maybe there should be a little more work ensuring proper dimension rules are followed.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by bkahl

To build the field for a kickoff, I'm fairly certain you have to sign some kind of NDA to see the field drawings. This prevents any teams who have access to the drawings from spreading them to others and to their own team members who have not yet seen the field.

Correct.

I don't see an issue with opening this access to anyone who wants to sign the NDA, regardless on whether or not the build is for a Kickoff event. I think opening this to mentors only is a reasonable measure to ensure that the students are still getting the "kickoff experience".

This would be a significant load on FIRST to accomplish; field builder is an assigned volunteer role for official events, where they have some degree of control. And I should note that FIRST strongly discourages active team mentors from being assigned to this role.

125 builds the field elements for the local kick-off event (I am not involved- I'm home in CT on break during the build), and it was really nice to have everything ready to go on Day 1. From what I understand, it took the contingency of mentors a dew days work to get the elements done. I can definitely see where an advantage comes into play, and how the field build can be especially challenging when most of the team would rather get "robot-work" done.

Also accurate. 2015's field was pretty trivial, and it kicked our butts.

However, before we release the field drawings early, maybe there should be a little more work ensuring proper dimension rules are followed.

Major key.

Source: Kickoff coordinator for South Carolina 2015-2016; Garnet Squadron bankrolled (but did not build) field elements in 2015.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Part of the "kickoff experience" used to be getting the name of the game, that's no longer true so clearly we can make big changes. I don't think it's hurt the kickoff experience, there have been several leaks in the past and i don't remember ever feeling cheated by knowing something a little early, we still didn't have the complete rule set so we couldn't start designing.

I'm all for giving more information to teams to make the FRC season less stressful and improve the quality of robots on the field.

[dtengineering]

I'm certainly not opposed to the idea of releasing the game element designs early, but the practical limitation of backing up against Christmas holidays is an issue.

As mentioned earlier, a bit more refinement of the "wooden field" drawings would be helpful. The drawings may have improved, but I remember thinking "this was drawn by someone who has never built anything." (To quote one of my colleagues... "These were drawn by a @#$%@#$ engineer.") A bit of an exaggeration, but the drawings certainly didn't express any empathy for the builder.

Having a team of people who have never seen the final elements build and assemble the "wooden field" based on the drawings would not only provide feedback on how to improve the drawings but would also provide a chance to have a photographic step-by-step guide on how to build the field.

It would also help to have a parts list so that teams could have plywood, 2x4's and any weird hardware bits in stock, rather than having to spend the weekend chasing them down.

Good suggestion, though... having some practice field elements makes a BIG difference in building a reasonably competitive robot.

Jason

[Brandon Holley]

As someone who has been leading field builds and hosting kickoffs since 2008, I just wanted to add a couple bits of color to the discussion.

While I think the advantages to host teams/mentors are obvious, it is definitely more of a mixed bag than a slam dunk advantage. Deciphering the drawings is a TON of work that then needs to be built into a BOM and budget. For me, I also do the materials run each year, which means I get to go buy the sometimes insane amount of wood required.

Often times, what we build is completely useless, or misleading. I cannot tell you how much effort went into building the 2013 practice version Pyramid that was completely useless for anything but aesthetic or scale. It did help the 45 teams at the Kickoff we hosted get a sense for scale, but it was unuseable for climbing. The 2010 tower had 4X4 sides, not round bar needed for most curl up hangers. The 2014 practice Truss was SO not worth the effort for something that was essentially a volleyball net.

All of those projects required dozens or even hundreds of man hours to pull off. It was also pulled off at a time where a lot of us want to spend time with family and enjoy the calm before the storm. On top of that, in many instances, the version we built needed heavy modifcation or complete rebuild to fulfill the teams needs. This meant duplicating the work we already did.

It's a lot of wasted time, money, effort, etc. There is definitely advantages that come from it for the team having some elements done, but wanted to frame the effort and risk behind it.

-Brando

[EricH]

Here's a crazy idea.

Why not, prior to Kickoff, release a "Cut List"? Doesn't have to be final size, but I could see something like this:

Element 1 (<=1):

• 5" x 5" wood beam, 3' long, QTY 1
• 3/4" plywood, 3' long by 1.5' wide, QTY 1

Element 2 (<=1):

• 3/4" plywood, 3' long by 1.5' wide, QTY 1
• 3' long 1.5" x 1.5" wood beam, QTY 2

Element 3 (<=5):
(list of parts for defense base)

[remaining elements of field]

You get the idea. Doesn't have to be final size, or have any funny angles included, but should be, if cut, a "kit" that will allow teams to take an educated guess as to what they'll want to build, and the approximate size. For example, if I saw something saying "<=5", I'd take a guess and say "I think I need to build a couple of these, let me look at the list for that". And for stuff with a "common" piece, I'd probably cut a bunch of those pieces.

Then, when Kickoff comes out, all FIRST has to do is include one extra list with the Manual:
Element 1 = Rock Wall, pg X
Element 2 = Rough Terrain, pg Y
Element 3 = Defense Base, pg Z
[...]
Then everybody can get their pre-cut "kits" and assemble.

Still doesn't solve the nuisance of "hey, who gave us bad team-build materials" but should get teams to that point faster.

[Knufire]

I really like this. Mentoring a team that struggled to build fields in 2015 and 2016, the chokehold was...
a. figuring out how much wood we needed and of what type
b. getting all the parts cut. Since we didn't have the required woodworking equipment, we had to rely on parents willing to donate time and therefore work around their schedules.
Once we got all the parts made, assembly went off quickly and relatively painlessly.

Getting simply the part drawings ahead of time would be a huge help. Even if they did give us exact quantities, I don't think there's much you can learn ahead of kickoff trying to piece the subassemblies together without any idea of what the full assembly is supposed to be.

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by EricH

Here's a crazy idea.

Why not, prior to Kickoff, release a "Cut List"? Doesn't have to be final size, but I could see something like this:

...

Still doesn't solve the nuisance of "hey, who gave us bad team-build materials" but should get teams to that point faster.

BRILLIANT! Yes! This would be AWESOME!

It could be released in December, and would be WAY more entertaining than a game hint as people try to figure out the different ways that pieces could be assembled.

It would also require that FIRST invest a bit more time in the team drawings... which, from the sound of it, is part of the problem with them now.

Jason

[346CADmen]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

BRILLIANT! Yes! This would be AWESOME!

It could be released in December, and would be WAY more entertaining than a game hint as people try to figure out the different ways that pieces could be assembled.

It would also require that FIRST invest a bit more time in the team drawings... which, from the sound of it, is part of the problem with them now.

Jason

I'll second this idea. Would be a huge plus in many ways, including budgeting of both $ and time.

I would also speak to those holding kickoff events and the "not much of an advantage" thought. Not much of an advantage is knowing the game name.
Having field elements day of kickoff, that is an advantage. On our team, we have joked about Ri3D comparing it to Fi3D (field in 3 days).

Perhaps those that host might be inclined to allow teams attending to take some of those elements with them after kickoff? then some other teams would have "not much of an advantage". Just a thought.

[MARS_James]

Originally Posted by 346CADmen

Perhaps those that host might be inclined to allow teams attending to take some of those elements with them after kickoff? then some other teams would have "not much of an advantage". Just a thought.

Would said teams pay the host team for said field elements? Not trying to be greedy but the host team had to use their materials, and their man power to build them it seems unfair to give them away just for some arbitrary idea of fairness.

That being said my team has made field elements in the past for other teams we usually have two caveats though, one is that you purchase your own materials (usually just the lumber), and if you are able to have a student come to our shop to either assist in building it or be overseen by us in building it depending on the students skill set.

[TJP123]

Originally Posted by 346CADmen

I'll second this idea. Would be a huge plus in many ways, including budgeting of both $ and time.

I would also speak to those holding kickoff events and the "not much of an advantage" thought. Not much of an advantage is knowing the game name.
Having field elements day of kickoff, that is an advantage. On our team, we have joked about Ri3D comparing it to Fi3D (field in 3 days).

Perhaps those that host might be inclined to allow teams attending to take some of those elements with them after kickoff? then some other teams would have "not much of an advantage". Just a thought.

And as a team that has hosted a kickoff event since, well, the first one ever, I would love to answer that. There are, as usual, plenty of misconceptions about the supposed advantages, and especially about how much work goes into it.

Those field elements don't just appear by magic. The final drawings are usually released 7-10 days (faulty memory could be a factor here) before kickoff. And you know all of those missing dimensions and poor drawings? They're even worse before the KO hosts start looking at them and asking questions. So while Team B is doing some final training or, more importantly, just resting and preparing for the season, Kickoff Host Team A is scrambling to build field elements. Interestingly, the size of the "advantage" is proportional to the amount of work. Some years there are fewer elements but it takes less time (for everybody) to build them. Last year was a killer. I would even allege that the advantage went to teams that could target what they wanted to prototype against first (i.e. rock wall vs. hanging bar) and build the other elements while that work was going on in parallel. KO hosts had to try to build all of them in a short time.

Let's not forget that the only reason Team A is building field elements is that they're also doing all the work that it takes to host Team B (and Teams C though AZ) at their Kickoff... KOP pickup, speakers, seminars/workshops, college fairs. But I suppose some would call that an advantage as well. After all, Team A didn't have to actually travel as far to attend the all-day rookie chassis build that they put on.

30 minutes after the video, Team B is back on the road with their KOP to begin their strategy and design talks. Meanwhile, Team A is doing cleanup and teardown and paperwork and all the other things that it takes to wrap up a kickoff event, including waiting 4 or 5 hours for teams Y and Z who were late, and the rules say if they don't pick up their KOP by the event close you can just send them back to HQ, but who's going to do that?

All for the "advantage" of having field elements sit in a closet for a month. Outside of the top 1% of teams (and frankly I'm not concerned with them, they'll be fine) the truth is that most teams have no use for field elements before week 3 anyway (with the occasional exception of bumps and obstacles where a drivetrain is a good enough prototype device).

So I'd love to come attend your local kickoff event. I promise I'll show up on time and I won't even ask to take your field elements with me when I leave. I'll get to take the month of December off and I'll have field elements built during Week 1 while strategy is being discussed anyway.

[346CADmen]

Originally Posted by TJP123

And as a team that has hosted a kickoff event since, well, the first one ever, I would love to answer that. There are, as usual, plenty of misconceptions about the supposed advantages, and especially about how much work goes into it.
I was not attempting to belittle any effort here, only point out that having these at KO and after is an advantage.

Those field elements don't just appear by magic. So while Team B is doing some final training or, more importantly, just resting and preparing for the season, Kickoff Host Team A is scrambling to build field elements. I would even allege that the advantage went to teams that could target what they wanted to prototype against first (i.e. rock wall vs. hanging bar) and build the other elements while that work was going on in parallel. KO hosts had to try to build all of them in a short time.
So when other teams are building them after KO, your team can be doing any of those things you mention, if desired. I would add perhaps you consider asking for assistance from some of those invited, many hands make work light.
I do full appreciate your point toward “what” teams build, and maybe a how. The truss 2014 being a prime example.

Let's not forget that the only reason Team A is building field elements is that they're also doing all the work that it takes to host Team B (and Teams C though AZ) at their Kickoff... KOP pickup, speakers, seminars/workshops, college fairs. But I suppose some would call that an advantage as well. After all, Team A didn't have to actually travel as far to attend the all-day rookie chassis build that they put on.
Your choice, no? And guessing it could be the cornerstone of a chairman’s presentation. Further I applaud your efforts, a true act of gracious professionalism.

30 minutes after the video, Team B is back on the road with their KOP to begin their strategy and design talks. Meanwhile, Team A is doing cleanup and teardown and paperwork and all the other things that it takes to wrap up a kickoff event, including waiting 4 or 5 hours for teams Y and Z who were late, and the rules say if they don't pick up their KOP by the event close you can just send them back to HQ, but who's going to do that?
Again ask for help, before and after? I suspect none of this takes a full team, borrowing some mentors from other teams allows other mentors of each to be engaged in the other activities you speak to.

All for the "advantage" of having field elements sit in a closet for a month. Outside of the top 1% of teams (and frankly I'm not concerned with them, they'll be fine) the truth is that most teams have no use for field elements before week 3 anyway (with the occasional exception of bumps and obstacles where a drivetrain is a good enough prototype device).
This is dependent on the team and the “use. Having them available might allow teams better ability to direct there strategy and design efforts.

So I'd love to come attend your local kickoff event. I promise I'll show up on time and I won't even ask to take your field elements with me when I leave. I'll get to take the month of December off and I'll have field elements built during Week 1 while strategy is being discussed anyway.

Please do. Happily Virginia FIRST and now, Chesapeake District has hosted a wonderful event at the VCU campus. Understand limited seating so whole teams are discouraged. A side note we have in the past, hosted other teams to join our kickoff activities, from the reveal thru post discussions. However due to the area’s organization hosting an event, we were not allowed access to the early field element drawings.

[bkahl]

Originally Posted by EricH

Here's a REALLY GOOD idea.

@Frank