Discussion: Release Team Field Drawings Early

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Ari423

Someone said above somewhere that everyone who works on building the field before the season needs to sign a NDA that they won't tell what the field elements are before kickoff. Wouldn't publicizing the cut list without consent from FIRST be a breach of the NDA?

I've assumed that the folks volunteering to publish the info would do it at their local kickoffs (not a week early).

That would be different from the OP's suggestion, but hopefully accomplish a big chunk of the benefit the OP wanted to accomplish.

The publishers will need to pay attention to the recently announced world wide coordination of kickoff announcements, but otherwise it should be easy to do correctly.

Blake

[TJP123]

Originally Posted by 346CADmen

I'll second this idea. Would be a huge plus in many ways, including budgeting of both $ and time.

I would also speak to those holding kickoff events and the "not much of an advantage" thought. Not much of an advantage is knowing the game name.
Having field elements day of kickoff, that is an advantage. On our team, we have joked about Ri3D comparing it to Fi3D (field in 3 days).

Perhaps those that host might be inclined to allow teams attending to take some of those elements with them after kickoff? then some other teams would have "not much of an advantage". Just a thought.

And as a team that has hosted a kickoff event since, well, the first one ever, I would love to answer that. There are, as usual, plenty of misconceptions about the supposed advantages, and especially about how much work goes into it.

Those field elements don't just appear by magic. The final drawings are usually released 7-10 days (faulty memory could be a factor here) before kickoff. And you know all of those missing dimensions and poor drawings? They're even worse before the KO hosts start looking at them and asking questions. So while Team B is doing some final training or, more importantly, just resting and preparing for the season, Kickoff Host Team A is scrambling to build field elements. Interestingly, the size of the "advantage" is proportional to the amount of work. Some years there are fewer elements but it takes less time (for everybody) to build them. Last year was a killer. I would even allege that the advantage went to teams that could target what they wanted to prototype against first (i.e. rock wall vs. hanging bar) and build the other elements while that work was going on in parallel. KO hosts had to try to build all of them in a short time.

Let's not forget that the only reason Team A is building field elements is that they're also doing all the work that it takes to host Team B (and Teams C though AZ) at their Kickoff... KOP pickup, speakers, seminars/workshops, college fairs. But I suppose some would call that an advantage as well. After all, Team A didn't have to actually travel as far to attend the all-day rookie chassis build that they put on.

30 minutes after the video, Team B is back on the road with their KOP to begin their strategy and design talks. Meanwhile, Team A is doing cleanup and teardown and paperwork and all the other things that it takes to wrap up a kickoff event, including waiting 4 or 5 hours for teams Y and Z who were late, and the rules say if they don't pick up their KOP by the event close you can just send them back to HQ, but who's going to do that?

All for the "advantage" of having field elements sit in a closet for a month. Outside of the top 1% of teams (and frankly I'm not concerned with them, they'll be fine) the truth is that most teams have no use for field elements before week 3 anyway (with the occasional exception of bumps and obstacles where a drivetrain is a good enough prototype device).

So I'd love to come attend your local kickoff event. I promise I'll show up on time and I won't even ask to take your field elements with me when I leave. I'll get to take the month of December off and I'll have field elements built during Week 1 while strategy is being discussed anyway.

[Ari423]

Originally Posted by rsisk

Yeah, I suggested releasing at kickoff when the field drawings are public. Pretty sure I read in my NDA it only applies until the information is public.

My bad, I assumed you meant to release it early like the OP (or someone earlier in the thread) suggested. That would still be helpful to compile and release a cut list after the drawings are released if FIRST doesn't do it themselves.

[346CADmen]

Originally Posted by TJP123

And as a team that has hosted a kickoff event since, well, the first one ever, I would love to answer that. There are, as usual, plenty of misconceptions about the supposed advantages, and especially about how much work goes into it.
I was not attempting to belittle any effort here, only point out that having these at KO and after is an advantage.

Those field elements don't just appear by magic. So while Team B is doing some final training or, more importantly, just resting and preparing for the season, Kickoff Host Team A is scrambling to build field elements. I would even allege that the advantage went to teams that could target what they wanted to prototype against first (i.e. rock wall vs. hanging bar) and build the other elements while that work was going on in parallel. KO hosts had to try to build all of them in a short time.
So when other teams are building them after KO, your team can be doing any of those things you mention, if desired. I would add perhaps you consider asking for assistance from some of those invited, many hands make work light.
I do full appreciate your point toward “what” teams build, and maybe a how. The truss 2014 being a prime example.

Let's not forget that the only reason Team A is building field elements is that they're also doing all the work that it takes to host Team B (and Teams C though AZ) at their Kickoff... KOP pickup, speakers, seminars/workshops, college fairs. But I suppose some would call that an advantage as well. After all, Team A didn't have to actually travel as far to attend the all-day rookie chassis build that they put on.
Your choice, no? And guessing it could be the cornerstone of a chairman’s presentation. Further I applaud your efforts, a true act of gracious professionalism.

30 minutes after the video, Team B is back on the road with their KOP to begin their strategy and design talks. Meanwhile, Team A is doing cleanup and teardown and paperwork and all the other things that it takes to wrap up a kickoff event, including waiting 4 or 5 hours for teams Y and Z who were late, and the rules say if they don't pick up their KOP by the event close you can just send them back to HQ, but who's going to do that?
Again ask for help, before and after? I suspect none of this takes a full team, borrowing some mentors from other teams allows other mentors of each to be engaged in the other activities you speak to.

All for the "advantage" of having field elements sit in a closet for a month. Outside of the top 1% of teams (and frankly I'm not concerned with them, they'll be fine) the truth is that most teams have no use for field elements before week 3 anyway (with the occasional exception of bumps and obstacles where a drivetrain is a good enough prototype device).
This is dependent on the team and the “use. Having them available might allow teams better ability to direct there strategy and design efforts.

So I'd love to come attend your local kickoff event. I promise I'll show up on time and I won't even ask to take your field elements with me when I leave. I'll get to take the month of December off and I'll have field elements built during Week 1 while strategy is being discussed anyway.

Please do. Happily Virginia FIRST and now, Chesapeake District has hosted a wonderful event at the VCU campus. Understand limited seating so whole teams are discouraged. A side note we have in the past, hosted other teams to join our kickoff activities, from the reveal thru post discussions. However due to the area’s organization hosting an event, we were not allowed access to the early field element drawings.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

If you really want to help bump up those teams that don't have the person-power to build field elements after kickoff, then we should get someone like AndyMark to partner with first, take pre-orders for cheap field elements (You won't know what you're getting, you'll just know it's $100 for a set of field elements that year), then distribute them with the KoP at kickoff. Maybe have some assembly required (IKEA style assembly), designed to be assembled by 5 people in 4 hours or less.

So I desperately want all the drawing improvements (so frustratingly overdue), and I'd do anything for official CAD released at kickoff. Also love the cut list hint!


My biggest thought, though, is Jon+Knufire's AndyMark discussion above. I wonder whether AM would be interested in surveying this for 2017. Don't actually manufacture or distribute anything (just prototypes). But present the idea and after kickoff say, "okay, if you'd pre-ordered the $100 kit this year, you would've gotten X. The $250 would've added Y, the $N kit added Q..."

If the hypothetical kits get a good "I'd buy that" response, maybe consider a real pilot in 2018, setup similar to the chassis opt out. Personally if AM thinks something like this is feasible, I'd trust them to give me the most critical/useful/sensitive/annoying-to-build-myself field elements for my pre-order price. If you end up not wanting to do a task, I bet someone around you would love to take that particular element off your hands.

I know this is a huge task and pressure in a dozen ways, and I wouldn't expect a yes from AM. But if so and the price points work out, this could help a lot of really striving teams. It also potentially doesn't have to be AM alone; we have so many good orgs in FRC now that the element choices could be endorsed by multiple trusted big names under NDAs (possibly with a distribution of work between them and/or branding).

[bobbysq]

Originally Posted by Ari423

Someone said above somewhere that everyone who works on building the field before the season needs to sign a NDA that they won't tell what the field elements are before kickoff. Wouldn't publicizing the cut list without consent from FIRST be a breach of the NDA?

They could do it under a throwaway account, but it'd be hard to prove it's a real list without blowing their cover.

[MARS_James]

Originally Posted by bobbysq

They could do it under a throwaway account, but it'd be hard to prove it's a real list without blowing their cover.

Yes let's make someone blow their NDA because they can't get caught due to anonymity. But if what they say is complete BS and I can see it, I either let teams potentially waste money, or blow my NDA by saying it's wrong. Now I don't think FIRST would care if I did but by saying that the cut list is wrong I would be violating the NDA technically.

[bobbysq]

Originally Posted by MARS_James

Yes let's make someone blow their NDA because they can't get caught due to anonymity. But if what they say is complete BS and I can see it, I either let teams potentially waste money, or blow my NDA by saying it's wrong. Now I don't think FIRST would care if I did but by saying that the cut list is wrong I would be violating the NDA technically.

I wasn't really trying to endorse that happening, more suggesting a situation in which it could happen. I certainly agree that it'll be bad for teams if someone decides to release a fake list, causing confusion. Even a real list would be complicated, because of course it'll be denied to keep the game (or disassembled pieces of wood that make a game) a secret.