[FRC Blog] 2017 International Game Piece Option

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by Matt Ciprietti

Yeah, don't read too much into that. Likely you're only going to get one more of whatever the game piece(s) are that are included in the basic kit of parts. This was the case in 2016 - the kit contained one boulder, and we received one more boulder by opting in to this. Which, by the way, was a terrible deal for 20% of your FIRST Choice credits.

If this means that the game pieces are similarly expensive this year, that too is terrible.

[Andrew_L]

Originally Posted by Basel A

If this means that the game pieces are similarly expensive this year, that too is terrible.

My favorite game pieces are the kind exclusively sold through AndyMark.

[Chris is me]

I still have no idea why this is limited to international teams.

[alectronic]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I still have no idea why this is limited to international teams.

Doesn't it explain this in the blog? There's a practical reason the international friends need it. Domestically, this would probably be too hard to scale and have a "different thing for every team" compared to normal kickoff boxes. It's a very different scale.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by alectronic

Doesn't it explain this in the blog? There's a practical reason the international friends need it.

Which isn't really an argument against it being for domestic teams at all - this is only an argument in favor of the option existing for international teams.

Domestically, this would probably be too hard to scale and have a "different thing for every team" compared to normal kickoff boxes. It's a very different scale.

This is exactly what happens already with the KoP opt-in / opt-out program as it is. FIRST already handles "different thing for every team" just fine, with much bigger (generally), heavier, more expensive things. Different teams get different selections of stuff. Without knowing the game piece it's hard to say for sure but for example last year, it can't be that hard to throw another dozen balls in the shipping container for your local Kickoff.

[jaredhk]

Originally Posted by Basel A

If this means that the game pieces are similarly expensive this year, that too is terrible.

It could also mean that shipping is just expensive for a bulky item. So big game pieces?

Originally Posted by Andrew_L

My favorite game pieces are the kind exclusively sold through AndyMark.

I also love when this happens. My favorite part, however, is when their shipping algorithm charges substantially more than the cost of the item.

[pilleya]

Access to plenty of gamepieces early in the build season really does make a difference for teams. In 2015 it was difficult to design a robot to build multiple 6 stacks when we didn’t actually have 6 totes for a long time. Having just a few gamepieces at the start of the season( for a week or so) can narrow down your strategy and robot to working with only a few game pieces as you don’t get to see the bigger picture.

You can try substitute the official gamepiece with something similiar( such as the 2013/2014 KOP totes) while you wait but there are always differences( such as tote height etc.).

The system of trading FC credits for an extra boulder seemed reasonable this year. As the value of the FC credits would probably equal the price from Andymark+express postage

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by jaredhk

I also love when this happens. My favorite part, however, is when their shipping algorithm charges substantially more than the cost of the item.

When has it charged more than the cost of the item? Not even 2015 was that way for within the US.

[Jaci]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I still have no idea why this is limited to international teams.

It explains in the post.
(I'll use my country, Australia, as an example here)

It's hard for us to source parts from overseas, and even harder for us to source them locally, especially game pieces.

The added costs that we have that 'domestic' teams don't have to deal with include: Shipping, Exchange Rate, and other charges. What's more is that some suppliers straight up won't ship overseas. There's also a lot of delay with it going through customs / postage here, which can be possible trouble. Allowing us to purchase these through FIRST choice doesn't necessarily eliminate this, but it does make it a bit easier on us.

Also keep in mind that we don't get our KOP on start build day. They're shipped out express on start build day. For us over here in Western Australia, I believe they are shipped to Sydney, and then sent to us over on the other side. This adds at least a couple days before we even get our hands on the Kit of Parts, scratching what could be prototyping time.

Game pieces are a specifically tricky thing to get, because we have to balance "one extra game piece, but all these extra costs, time and trouble".

We already have so much trouble compared to 'domestic' teams with a lot of stuff, is it really all that bad if we get one thing nice?

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Jaci

It explains in the post.
(I'll use my country, Australia, as an example here)

It's hard for us to source parts from overseas, and even harder for us to source them locally, especially game pieces.

The added costs that we have that 'domestic' teams don't have to deal with include: Shipping, Exchange Rate, and other charges. What's more is that some suppliers straight up won't ship overseas. There's also a lot of delay with it going through customs / postage here, which can be possible trouble. Allowing us to purchase these through FIRST choice doesn't necessarily eliminate this, but it does make it a bit easier on us.

Also keep in mind that we don't get our KOP on start build day. They're shipped out express on start build day. For us over here in Western Australia, I believe they are shipped to Sydney, and then sent to us over on the other side. This adds at least a couple days before we even get our hands on the Kit of Parts, scratching what could be prototyping time.

Game pieces are a specifically tricky thing to get, because we have to balance "one extra game piece, but all these extra costs, time and trouble".

We already have so much trouble compared to 'domestic' teams with a lot of stuff, is it really all that bad if we get one thing nice?

Once again, while all of these are great reasons for the program to exist for international teams, none of these are reasons for the program not to exist for domestic teams.

I've certainly never said (nor would I) that if domestic teams can't have access to this, then nobody should. Of course as many teams as possible have this option - international teams shouldn't be denied something out of spite because domestic teams don't have it.

What I'm saying, once again, is that FIRST already has experience and a structure in place for giving teams KoP packages that vary based on team preference, and that working toward expanding this option for everyone should be somewhere on their priority list. For the past two seasons they haven't even mentioned this possibility, as if there's no reason domestic teams would want this, when people have been asking for years.

Originally Posted by Andrew_L

My favorite game pieces are the kind exclusively sold through AndyMark.

Even when they're not exclusively through AndyMark (and when is the last time they were?), AM has always had the best combination of price, shipping rate, and shipping speed for me. I don't get the hate here; they're a great company that responds to the needs of FRC teams unlike any other.

[Taylor]

Chris - I really don't follow your reasoning.
To make a really awful analogy to how I interpret your argument, if vision-impaired people get eyeglasses, then everybody should get eyeglasses.
Domestic teams already have access to the parts, by virtue of them being in America. Those teams not in America have limited or difficult access, so the FC option helps level the field.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Taylor

Chris - I really don't follow your reasoning.
To make a really awful analogy to how I interpret your argument, if vision-impaired people get eyeglasses, then everybody should get eyeglasses.
Domestic teams already have access to the parts, by virtue of them being in America. Those teams not in America have limited or difficult access, so the FC option helps level the field.

That analogy isn't great, because glasses correct vision to normal levels, they don't make vision better than normal.

Two people get boxes of things on a certain day. The system that brings them boxes brings everyone Box A and Box C, and some people also get Box B.
Both people immediately want another Box C when they receive their other boxes.
One person can get Box C a week later for $X, another can get Box C four weeks later for $4X dollars. This is obviously unfair.

Now the system is modified, so that when everyone gets their boxes of things, people that had to wait four weeks can get another Box C on the same day! This is an improvement, and not something anyone, at any point, is suggesting we roll back or otherwise remove.

But one person still has to pay $X dollars and wait a week to get the second Box C that they already know they want. And the box-delivering system already has infrastructure in place to handle requests for additional boxes.

I don't know how many times I have to say this - I'm happy this program exists for international teams! I don't want it to stop existing just because it can't be done for domestic teams! I'm just asking if it can also be done for domestic teams! That's it! Saying "well it was bad for international teams" has nothing to do with that question - we know, that's why the program exists and we all agree it is better than it was before.

All I really want to know is, they considered it and ran into some unforeseen roadblock that prevents them from doing this, and that they heard the concerns of domestic teams whom have been asking for this since forever, and definitely asked for this last year the first time this program was announced. This hasn't really been acknowledged by FIRST.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Once again, while all of these are great reasons for the program to exist for international teams, none of these are reasons for the program not to exist for domestic teams.

I've certainly never said (nor would I) that if domestic teams can't have access to this, then nobody should. Of course as many teams as possible have this option - international teams shouldn't be denied something out of spite because domestic teams don't have it.

What I'm saying, once again, is that FIRST already has experience and a structure in place for giving teams KoP packages that vary based on team preference, and that working toward expanding this option for everyone should be somewhere on their priority list. For the past two seasons they haven't even mentioned this possibility, as if there's no reason domestic teams would want this, when people have been asking for years.



Even when they're not exclusively through AndyMark (and when is the last time they were?), AM has always had the best combination of price, shipping rate, and shipping speed for me. I don't get the hate here; they're a great company that responds to the needs of FRC teams unlike any other.

What's the average shipping time for you for any in-stock part from McMaster? I'm going to guess 3 days unless you pay extra, in which case you can have it next day. AndyMark is pretty similar, VP as well.

Now, remember last season when Ron waited 3 weeks for a McMaster order that he never ended up getting? I'm not sure what his AM/VP situation is like but once you start dealing with international customs life gets really bad really quick. Prototyping with 1 game piece sucks and puts those teams at a distinct disadvantage, this is meant to address that.

If your team wants a second game piece they can get it at some semi reasonable date without actually having to fly someone stateside to pick it up.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

Hmm... the only time I have seen an AM order cost more for (non-express domestic US) shipping than the cost of the item was when I queried shipping prices for the pool noodles a recentTuesday when they were one of the "deals of the day".

Yeah, dimensional weight and oversize surcharges are a pain. Sorry about that!

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by Billfred

Yeah, dimensional weight and oversize surcharges are a pain. Sorry about that!

On the other hand, it IS what I expected, having shopped pool noodles on-line a few years ago. It's not an AM problem, its a shipping cost problem.

Please note that in the next paragraph I am not begrudging the international teams having access to the "extra game pieces" pre-order; this is definitely an offset of a disadvantage. On the other hand, I think that extending it to everyone would be a help to everyone, including those who do not take advantage of the opportunity.

If the extra game piece(s) option were available to US teams, we would almost certainly take advantage of the opportunity; I wouldn't be a bit surprised if half of the US teams took advantage of it. The reason I believe it should be extended to US teams is this: If AM (or another supplier) could reliably expect 2000-3000 orders of the game piece sight unseen (perhaps back in October), this would significantly ease the regular chicken-and-egg problem of FRC game pieces -- the global demand is usually 1500 units per year, then suddenly, in one month, there's a demand for 10,000 of them. The global stocks disappear in a day, and it takes a week or more to spin up the factory on the item. US teams get it in two weeks, and other teams in four (or more). Front-loading the demand would reduce the problem for EVERYBODY.

(And OBTW, I expect that the same would hold true for FTC.)