Legality of purchasing Planetary Gearboxes from alternative sources.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by MrBasse

Where does Andymark get their PG sets from? They don't make them in house otherwise they wouldn't have had to wait for a shipment to come in when they were out of stock. A 25 day lead sounds awful familiar...

I honestly don't know but a simple email/phone call to support will probably tell you. Could they come from China? Yes. Do they likely source them a bit better than the random stuff on aliexpress? I'm going to go with yes. I suspect they have some quality checks that aliexpress doesn't given the markets for both companies.

It's common for people to say stuff like "this thing comes from the same factory in China so why doesn't it cost $ instead of $$$" and it very well might but that doesn't guarantee quality or anything. There is a great book called "Where do underpants come from?" that does a good job explaining some of this sourcing magic as well racism in China. Author also talks about intellectual property theft in China. You can buy Cree LEDs and flashlights for cheap. A lot of them are not using actual Cree LEDs and don't come from the factories that Cree operates. They come from designs stolen by factories that are sub-par.

[MrBasse]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

You just answered your own question - let's assume they are identical. Can you plan your requirements 25 days out during build season? No? So what you'd really like is some locally sourced components. But since they now have to stock in the hopes of you ordering they've taken on risk, couple that with costs of warehousing and shipping it to you. Really you're paying AM to stock the part for you so you can have it in your greasy hands tomorrow instead of next month.

Before you start assuming that I hold something against AM for their business practices, slow down and think a bit. All I did was raise a question. If it is the same, and like the OP I can plan ahead, I would be willing to check these out. I'm rarely willing to pay someone double the cost on an item just for convenience, and would rather find a solution that uses a different product.
However, we like the PG series. Amd might be willing to test the's out to see how they function as it offers a considerable savings when you use 2-3 of these a year on each robot plus spares...

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by MrBasse

Before you start assuming that I hold something against AM for their business practices, slow down and think a bit. All I did was raise a question. If it is the same, and like the OP I can plan ahead, I would be willing to check these out. I'm rarely willing to pay someone double the cost on an item just for convenience, and would rather find a solution that uses a different product.
However, we like the PG series. Amd might be willing to test the's out to see how they function as it offers a considerable savings when you use 2-3 of these a year on each robot plus spares...

Where did I say you had an issue? I said you answered your own question about why AM charges more.

[mman1506]

Originally Posted by marshall

I honestly don't know but a simple email/phone call to support will probably tell you. Could they come from China? Yes. Do they likely source them a bit better than the random stuff on aliexpress? I'm going to go with yes. I suspect they have some quality checks that aliexpress doesn't given the markets for both companies.

It's common for people to say stuff like "this thing comes from the same factory in China so why doesn't it cost $ instead of $$$" and it very well might but that doesn't guarantee quality or anything. There is a great book called "Where do underpants come from?" that does a good job explaining some of this sourcing magic as well racism in China. Author also talks about intellectual property theft in China. You can buy Cree LEDs and flashlights for cheap. A lot of them are not using actual Cree LEDs and don't come from the factories that Cree operates. They come from designs stolen by factories that are sub-par.

I seriously doubt these gearboxes are any different than the ones AM sell. This is definitely not a case of IP theft. These gearboxes were available before AM sold them. The price difference is due to AM's value added service of distributing them locally and providing after sales support.

Also, Aliexpress is not a distributor, it's a marketplace backed by one of the largest companies in the world. Different sellers may offer different product. China ≠ bad or fake product, it just often means there is less consumer protection in place to prevent you from receiving a bad product.

[Lil' Lavery]

These gearmotors being from China may help explain the completely nonsensical output shaft. 10mm diameter with a 4mm keyway. Practically no sprockets available in that size, nor keyway broach sets.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

These gearmotors being from China may help explain the completely nonsensical output shaft. 10mm diameter with a 4mm keyway. Practically no sprockets available in that size, nor keyway broach sets.

Yeah, cuz 8mm w/2mm isn't weird...

Though AM does sell an adapter to go to 1/2" with a key http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-0996.htm might help but 1/2" w/ key is still kinda odd.


For folks trying to buy JUST the gearbox instead of including a motor you won't use https://www.aliexpress.com/item/45mm...90259411.html? looks solid enough.

There's also a 42mm version I've been looking at for smaller stuff, though I might upgrade to 45mm. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/42mm...90423964.html?

[marshall]

Originally Posted by mman1506

I seriously doubt these gearboxes are any different than the ones AM sell. This is definitely not a case of IP theft. These gearboxes were available before AM sold them. The price difference is due to AM's value added service of distributing them locally and providing after sales support.

Also, Aliexpress is not a distributor, it's a marketplace backed by one of the largest companies in the world. Different seller may offer different product. China ≠ bad or fake product, it just often means there is less consumer protection in place to prevent you from receiving a bad product.

Fair enough. I guess it comes down to buyer beware.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Yeah, cuz 8mm w/2mm isn't weird...

8mm/2mm at least meets the rule of thumb that a keyway width is 1/4 the diameter of the shaft. And thus broach manufacturers will make broaches and bushing combinations in that size.

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Though AM does sell an adapter to go to 1/2" with a key http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-0996.htm might help but 1/2" w/ key is still kinda odd.

I'm aware of that adapter, but unfortunately brass shaft adapters aren't meant to handle shock loads (like those experienced when crossing defenses in Stronghold).

[pilleya]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

For folks trying to buy JUST the gearbox instead of including a motor you won't use....looks solid enough.

There's also a 42mm version I've been looking at for smaller stuff, though I might upgrade to 45mm.

For teams wanting to do this or something similiar, make sure you only use the low-power RS775-125 that Andymark sells. If you try to hook up a 775pro or 775-18 it is not going to end well for you. Andymark says on their website that if the pg27 with a 9015 is stalled then the gearbox will break. So even a reduction as low as probably 10-15ish:1 with a decent 775 will cause failure of the gearbox. In comparison the Versa-Planetary is rated up to 210:1 for the 775pro. So the gearbox can only handle 1/20th of the torque.

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by pilleya

For teams wanting to do this or something similiar, make sure you only use the low-power RS775-125 that Andymark sells. If you try to hook up a 775pro or 775-18 it is not going to end well for you. Andymark says on their website that if the pg27 with a 9015 is stalled then the gearbox will break. So even a reduction as low as probably 10-15ish:1 with a decent 775 will cause failure of the gearbox. In comparison the Versa-Planetary is rated up to 210:1 for the 775pro. So the gearbox can only handle 1/20th of the torque.

Check that again:

Originally Posted by PG27 web page on AndyMark

Performance Specs:

• Gearbox Reduction: 26.9:1
• Voltage: 12 volt DC
• Dyno Tested No Load Free Speed: 512.4 rpm
• No Load Current: 1.2 amps
• Gearbox Output Power: XX Watts
• Dyno Tested Stall Torque: 3.55 ft-lbf
• Stall Current: 63 amps
• Minimum torque needed to back drive a non-powered PG27: 0.3ft-lbs
• Maximum torque applied at shaft which breaks gearbox: 39 ft-lbs (breakage point is shearing of shaft)

There's another factor of ten in torque before breakage. Using the PG-188 with a higher torque motor is certainly subject to a sheared shaft, as stall torque with the 9015 motor is listed as 33 ft-lb, on the same output shaft.

[pilleya]

This is what is stated on the website for PG27 with 9015:

Originally Posted by Andymark Website

Be careful though, as the maximum torque the gearbox can handle is lower than the stall torque of the motor, be sure to limit it's output force

The description implies otherwise.

I'm not really sure if the Dyno testing results are correct( or maybe they are the 775-125 results), surely if the 9015 has a stall torque of 0.36 N.m( from motors.vex) with a 27:1 reduction the stall torque should be around 9.72 N.m( less due to frictional losses) rather 4.8N.m(using online calc from 3.55 ft-lbf)

If the stall torque measurement was correct it points to the gearbox having an output power of 65watts, which doesn't seem correct considering that from the VEX testing the 9015 is capable of 134watts.