ShopBot Desktop router up for the challenge?

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by RoboChair

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/cnc-spindle-motor
or
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...=2LEHNTN7VNJII

I would suggest a 2.2 kw water cooled one with ER20 collets. If you do not have 220V power you will likely require a VFD as well.
You will also need to make sure that you will have a mount to hold it.

We've been very happy with our 2.2 kw spindle from keling inc on our router for the last 5 years.

I just purchased an X8 (w/ x6 usb controller) from Omio CNC that came with the same spindle, and happy with it so far.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by RoboChair

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/cnc-spindle-motor
or
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...=2LEHNTN7VNJII

I would suggest a 2.2 kw water cooled one with ER20 collets. If you do not have 220V power you will likely require a VFD as well.
You will also need to make sure that you will have a mount to hold it.

Are most any spindles with these specs from ebay or Amazon worth the purchase? I'm not sure if spindles are something where anything you get with these specs will do the job, or if you could be causing yourself serious pain by going with a knock off.
Is there anything aside from those specs that I should keep an eye out for? Good/bad manufacturers?

[mman1506]

Originally Posted by RoboChair

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/cnc-spindle-motor
or
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...=2LEHNTN7VNJII

I would suggest a 2.2 kw water cooled one with ER20 collets. If you do not have 220V power you will likely require a VFD as well.
You will also need to make sure that you will have a mount to hold it.

I'm 90% sure you need a VFD to use these spindles in any setup. I've used a couple on different machines and they all have parameters that must be set in the VFD to avoid damaging the spindle from over speed. I don't have much knowledge of AC power systems but I'm fairly sure that if they were hooked up directly to 3 phase power It wouldn't work or spin far too slow for machining. Likewise I've never seen someone hook one up without a VFD.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Monochron

Our team is in a position to buy a CNC mill or CNC router in the neighborhood of $10K and I was hoping to get a feel for the pros and cons of our options from people who are actually familiar with mills and routers . The four factors we are trying to balance are 1) Tolerance 2) Space savings 3) Cutting volume 4) Noise level.

Right now I am leaning towards the ShopBot Desktop with spindle and enclosure. It can fit on our benchtops (32" deep), the enclosure will help with sound, the cutting area is decent (24"x18"), and they are local to us. Does anyone know if the Desktop has the tolerance to cut 1/4" aluminum plate for a gearbox? I know that the Velox routers do, but their size makes them a little less attractive.

We have the ability to outsource large or complex parts to a sponsor, but would really prefer to do 80% of the work in-house if possible. We have a grant opportunity to help fund this, so buying new is more convenient, but could probably go used if it is available now.

We are also looking at different CNC Mills. The speed and tolerances they provide are really attractive, but it looks like they will all have to take floor space, and the noise may be a problem in our small shop. Also, am I right to believe that mills would make machining aluminum tubing much simpler?

• Is the ShopBox Desktop capable of cutting 1/4" aluminum close to +/- .001" similar to a Velox?
• How much easier is it to machine aluminum tubing on a CNC mill vs a CNC router?
• Would the extra speeds possible on a mill negate the noise issue (ie. cuts are loud but only take 5 minutes vs 30 minutes?)

Go with the ShopBot. They are local (Literally up the road in Durham), know all about FIRST and FRC, and make great tools. Give them a call, tell them you want to take a bunch of students on a tour of their shop, and then see what kind of deal they'll work with you and get help from them when picking out what you need. They really are an amazing company and I'm not just saying that because they have sponsored us in the past.

[frcguy]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

If there's any possible way you can swing it in the budget, it would be hard to go wrong with a Haas mill. They just introduced the Mini Mill Edu yesterday. But, you would need space for it and power and air for it.

Woah, an inexpensive (relatively compared to the other options they sell) Haas machine aimed at education? We'll be taking a good look at this one.

Also, if anyone else is encountering a 404 when they try to visit the Haas page, I found a data sheet for it: http://haascnc.com/DOCLIB/Datasheets/DS_MM-EDU_US.pdf

[Cory]

Originally Posted by frcguy

Woah, an inexpensive (relatively compared to the other options they sell) Haas machine aimed at education? We'll be taking a good look at this one.

Also, if anyone else is encountering a 404 when they try to visit the Haas page, I found a data sheet for it: http://haascnc.com/DOCLIB/Datasheets/DS_MM-EDU_US.pdf

The link Dave posted was missing a letter. http://haascnc.com/whatsnew-MINIMILL-EDU.asp should work.

FWIW this isn't as screaming a deal as I first thought. If you spec this out as a standard minimill is configured you basically end up at a slightly better price than the educational discount Haas offers for a purchase of any machine, with a worse warranty (educational purchases come with a 2 yr warranty, this one you have to pay for a 1 year warranty).

The kicker may be the extras they include as part of the classroom kit. It doesn't specify what those are, but if they're including CAD/CAM and tooling certificates that could well push it over the top.

That being said, if you don't need all the things that come standard on the non-educational minimill this would be a great way to get into an entry level machine that is going to be worlds better than any hobbyist grade machine (including tormach).

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by Cory

The link Dave posted was missing a letter. http://haascnc.com/whatsnew-MINIMILL-EDU.asp should work.

FWIW this isn't as screaming a deal as I first thought. If you spec this out as a standard minimill is configured you basically end up at a slightly better price than the educational discount Haas offers for a purchase of any machine, with a worse warranty (educational purchases come with a 2 yr warranty, this one you have to pay for a 1 year warranty).

The kicker may be the extras they include as part of the classroom kit. It doesn't specify what those are, but if they're including CAD/CAM and tooling certificates that could well push it over the top.

That being said, if you don't need all the things that come standard on the non-educational minimill this would be a great way to get into an entry level machine that is going to be worlds better than any hobbyist grade machine (including tormach).

Thanks for fixing the link, slip of the mouseclick perhaps. As for Haas vs Tormach, let me put it this way: the Haas can cut aluminum at the speed the Tormach makes its rapid moves through air. Also, the Haas comes turn-key ready to use. The Tormach can be a little bit of a project to get fully up and running. Also, when the Haas breaks, they come fix it. When the Tormach breaks, you fix it. That said, I successfully bored 60 holes to within .001 on our Tormach lathe tonight, while the Haas lathe sat powered off 15 feet away. For lathes, the Tormach has kind of been our go-to machine for the past year or so but for mills, Haas is where it's at.

What makes the Haas Mini Mill EDU cheaper than the standard Mini Mill is that it does not come with a tool changer, which may or may not be a big deal for you. For me, I would go crazy having to manually change tools, but with a CAT40 spindle it's not as bad as some other systems.

And as Cory mentioned, the Haas is easily twice the machine the Tormach is, any day of the week. When we first started into CNC machining, we almost pulled the trigger on a Tormach 1100 fully optioned out, but if I recall, the price was up around $22k with tooling and whatnot. We were able to push tooling to a separate budget, up the machine budget a little bit and go for the Haas, and it's been one of the smartest things we ever did. I filled a 55 gallon drum with chips machined in it it just today. Try that on a Tormach.

As for router spindles, anything less than 2HP is not going to give you any respectable cutting power. We've had a Porter Cable 2 1/4 HP and a Hitachi MV12 2 1/4 HP. The Porter Cable was deafeningly loud. The Hitachi is substantially quieter, but is smaller in physical size, and lacks the torque that the Porter Cable had. I can imagine cutting with a 1HP spindle to be akin to watching paint dry.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

As for router spindles, anything less than 2HP is not going to give you any respectable cutting power . . . I can imagine cutting with a 1HP spindle to be akin to watching paint dry.

Just to be clear, in your opinion is "respectable cutting power" needed to make an accurate gearbox plate? Or is it just needed to make an accurate gearbox plate in a reasonable amount of time?
Our situation is such that right now we will probably only make one or two custom gearboxes in a season and are willing to spend the time. In the future we could upgrade to a big beefy spindle and improve that time.

[mman1506]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

As for router spindles, anything less than 2HP is not going to give you any respectable cutting power. We've had a Porter Cable 2 1/4 HP and a Hitachi MV12 2 1/4 HP. The Porter Cable was deafeningly loud. The Hitachi is substantially quieter, but is smaller in physical size, and lacks the torque that the Porter Cable had. I can imagine cutting with a 1HP spindle to be akin to watching paint dry.

Both those wood router spindles are going to be far less powerful and capable than the 1 HP three phase spindle that comes with the shopbot. Wood routers are usually advertised with peak H/P numbers and are less efficient than a proper spindle.

[frcguy]

Dave and Cory,

Thank you so much for posting your thoughts on the Haas machine! We were looking towards a Tormach, but this new option will probably be high up on our machinery purchase list this season. Also, I'm really intrigued about the included curriculum etc. listed on the data sheet so I put a request for more info in. I will update everyone if/when I get literature and material from Haas.

Thanks again!